Reversal print processing video..new approach

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just checked the print and it is lighter ... i added another squirt of 3% and 1/4tsp of CA and agitated some more ...
not sure if it will be done in an hour or be an all day affair but it is bleaching little by little .. ( its been a little less than an hour since i started )
 

himself

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I've been doing some more printing this morning, and after some test strips I think (for the second time, so for now I'm still not completely certain) to have a workable process.

I've doubled my first development and halved my re-exposure which seems to have cured my problems with grey highlights and mottling. Here's one I printed earlier, I tried the exact same process 3 times since with the same results.

DSC_0434.JPG

The image is a little whiter than it appears here.

So my process now (still using ilford MG RC 8x10 rated @ asa 1.5) is:

Dev - 1:9 Ilford Multigrade @ 20c - 3 minutes (double normal printing time)
rinse
bleach - 3 minutes (bleach is 300ml peroxide 12% + 2 heaped tspns citric acid
rinse
expose - enlarger f4.5 @20 inches - 1 Minute
Dev - 1:9 Ilford Multigrade @ 20c - to completion
fix

and just to add to a couple things mentioned in the thread.

I've noticed, and I think this is important, it's better to agitate the bleaching stage as little as possible, like maybe a gentle rock every minute - so just enough to make sure it stays wet. The bleaching seams to work much better when left alone. I've also never considered warming it and I'm using it at room temp, which is about 17c here. I'd also think you're all under using your bleach solutions, the image posted above is the 7th 8x10 in 300ml and it still bleached to completely white in 3 minutes.
 

DonF

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Wow! I just had two spectacular successes. I captured the entire processing on video using a reddened and dimmed Iphone screen, As soon as the prints dry and I do a little editing, I'll upload the stills and vids, with particulars.

Never say never....

Don
 

himself

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Wow! I just had two spectacular successes. I captured the entire processing on video using a reddened and dimmed Iphone screen, As soon as the prints dry and I do a little editing, I'll upload the stills and vids, with particulars.

Never say never....

Don

great!

and you're using graded paper right? I'm hoping to have an alternative to the MG, which is a little heavy on contrast, so to know a switch to graded paper is possible would be very welcome news.
 

NedL

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Now that I'm measuring the CA each time, I'm getting consistent bleach times. Between 1:45 and 2h for 0.45g CA in 120ml 3% H2O2.

I haven't been drying or squeegeeing for re-exposure... just pouring out the tray and sticking it under the enlarger... almost every one of mine has dark streaks down the side where the enlarger light reflects off the shiny tray walls and increases the exposure. I kinda like it, but it's something to keep in mind.

I've noticed you can get "mottled" shadow areas if the negative is overexposed or fogged... but the mottling looks different from what I've seen you guys post here for the highlights. I'm still getting the counter-intuitive result that if my negative is overexposed, the final result comes out too dark, and lower contrast. That's happened 5 times now, so it's not just a 1-time fluke. Probably it is because I'm developing the negative by inspection in weak developer, and have a tendency to stop sooner if the negative is overexposed.

Yesterday I spend a half hour or so working up a "standard test" with a grid of various green and blue exposures so that I can make repeatable tests.
 

DonF

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great!

and you're using graded paper right? I'm hoping to have an alternative to the MG, which is a little heavy on contrast, so to know a switch to graded paper is possible would be very welcome news.

Yes, Arista Edu #2, glossy....Least contrasty available.

Don
 

DonF

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Well, these are by far the best successes I have had with the peroxide process!

I used the identical formulation of the bleach as with my failures: 175mL water + 125mL 35% hydrogen peroxide + citric acid (7.4 grams), but this time warmed to 80 degrees F.

Dektol was used at 1+1.

First development was 90 seconds to completion. Bleaching was 3 minutes. Second exposure was shortened to 30-45 seconds. Second development was another 90 seconds.

I observed that after bleaching, a faint positive remained before the second exposure. There is evidently some chemical fogging process happening as part of the bleaching process. There was little image change during the second exposure, except the dark areas became more coppery in appearance.

When the exposure is right, the first development will render a clear negative image, no matter how long development goes for. This was with a single Speedotron flash head at 800ws at 4 feet. My flash meter was set to ISO 3, which indicated an exposure at f/22.5, f/22 when the 1/2 stop bellows extension compensation was made. It seemed perfect at ISO 3.

img378_web.jpg


Just to be sure this was repeatable, I did a second identical exposure using the cutoff from the 5x7 sheet, with identical processing. It came out even better. Same bleach. I used a shorter second exposure time, 30 seconds. The shorter exposure time gave better whites and fewer swirly artifacts in the highlight areas.

img379_web.jpg


I captured the entire processing on video using a darkened and reddened Iphone display.

Here is the first development:



develop1B.jpg


Here is the bleaching, real-time. I did let it continue another minute past the video end.



bleach.jpg


...and here is the fogging, second development, and fixing steps.



Apparently controlling the temperature, exposure, and first development solved the issues I saw before.

Hopefully it will work this well tomorrow!

Don
 
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himself

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these look great Don!

I'm curious about your lighting and exposure method. I'm only using natural light from a window (not a window that faces the sun) at the moment, which at f4.5 means an average exposure of about 8 seconds. So are you then - setting your lens to f22, opening the shutter on time/bulb and firing the flash, or do you have a flash sinked shutter?

The days are getting rapidly shorter here, so come November I'd like to be using a mixture of natural light with a little flash at the end.. I'll be up to 30 second exposures soon otherwise, which is a little long for portraits.
 

DonF

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these look great Don!

I'm curious about your lighting and exposure method. I'm only using natural light from a window (not a window that faces the sun) at the moment, which at f4.5 means an average exposure of about 8 seconds. So are you then - setting your lens to f22, opening the shutter on time/bulb and firing the flash, or do you have a flash sinked shutter?

The days are getting rapidly shorter here, so come November I'd like to be using a mixture of natural light with a little flash at the end.. I'll be up to 30 second exposures soon otherwise, which is a little long for portraits.


The particular shutter on my 210mm lens is a Copal #1 that is relatively modern and accurate. Being a leaf shutter, it will X sync at any speed, as long as I don't go faster than the flash duration of the Speedotrons, which only can happen at their highest 2400ws power output (1/250 duration). If I use the shutter sync cord, I simply set the shutter to 1/125 and it syncs fine at any flash power. It was simpler to set the shutter to "T", pull the slide, open the shutter, pop the flash manually, close the shutter and insert the slide. Old habit from wet plate.... I have a hand button that fires both slaved packs manually.

The new Minolta IVf flash meter really nails the exposure for the Arista #2 paper at ISO 3.

Don
 
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DonF

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I've been doing some more printing this morning, and after some test strips I think (for the second time, so for now I'm still not completely certain) to have a workable process.

I've doubled my first development and halved my re-exposure which seems to have cured my problems with grey highlights and mottling. Here's one I printed earlier, I tried the exact same process 3 times since with the same results.

View attachment 188820

The image is a little whiter than it appears here.

So my process now (still using ilford MG RC 8x10 rated @ asa 1.5) is:

Dev - 1:9 Ilford Multigrade @ 20c - 3 minutes (double normal printing time)
rinse
bleach - 3 minutes (bleach is 300ml peroxide 12% + 2 heaped tspns citric acid
rinse
expose - enlarger f4.5 @20 inches - 1 Minute
Dev - 1:9 Ilford Multigrade @ 20c - to completion
fix

and just to add to a couple things mentioned in the thread.

I've noticed, and I think this is important, it's better to agitate the bleaching stage as little as possible, like maybe a gentle rock every minute - so just enough to make sure it stays wet. The bleaching seams to work much better when left alone. I've also never considered warming it and I'm using it at room temp, which is about 17c here. I'd also think you're all under using your bleach solutions, the image posted above is the 7th 8x10 in 300ml and it still bleached to completely white in 3 minutes.

Great image with excellent contrast.. Thanks for details on the processing. I used really cool bleach with a concentration and formulation close to yours with miserable results. Warming it seemed to clear up the issues with incomplete bleaching. I have been agitating the bleach and it seemed to go OK the last round of shots.

Don
 

himself

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Great image with excellent contrast.. Thanks for details on the processing. I used really cool bleach with a concentration and formulation close to yours with miserable results. Warming it seemed to clear up the issues with incomplete bleaching. I have been agitating the bleach and it seemed to go OK the last round of shots.

Don

Thanks very much, and thanks for the info on the lighting. I'll have to take a break from making these for a couple weeks unfortunately, so when I get the chance I'll have to try some mixed lighting. I'm also curious about about how the temperature of the bleach might be effecting the image too, my only worry would be that the warmer the temp the quicker the bleach will break down.
 

DonF

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One odd thing I noticed when processing the recent image of the Graflex camera is that the negative image turned positive within seconds of hitting the peroxide bleach. The positive image faded slowly during the bleaching, to re-darken after reexposure and redevelopment.

That seems very odd. The dichromate bleach has no such effect. The negative image stays negative and fades to white in the bleach. A faint positive reappears during the second exposure. That images darkens to a positive print in the developer.

Something interesting is going on chemically.

Don
 

himself

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One odd thing I noticed when processing the recent image of the Graflex camera is that the negative image turned positive within seconds of hitting the peroxide bleach. The positive image faded slowly during the bleaching, to re-darken after reexposure and redevelopment.
Don

I noticed the same with my prints too, but have no idea what might be causing it.
 

NedL

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Very interesting. I haven't seen any of these things or any image during re-exposure using weak 3% H2O2. I have seen "solarization" or Sebatier effects in areas that were incompletely bleached ( with black Mackie lines in the final print) or incompletely re-exposed ( with white Mackie lines in the final print ).
 
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removed account4

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well, it was bleaching for a day and 1/2 and i got tired of waiting so i flashed it heavily next to a bright light bulb
front and back and when i re-developed it, it flipped to positive but only for like 2 seconds and i wasn't quick enough to pull it
out of the developer and it turned black soon after ... ive got another one bleaching now, i don't have much faith in big lots ...
 

DonF

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You know, if the image is turning positive almost immediately in the H2O2, I have to ask...

- Is the bleaching essentially complete when the image is as positive as can be in the bleach? If you watch my bleaching video, once the white background reverses from dark to white, it does not get any lighter after the first 20 seconds of the video.

- What is the advantage, if any, of bleaching the positive appearing bleached image further until the positive blacks fade, only to be darkened again by the second development?

- Is the peroxide bleach also providing some chemical fogging that augments the second exposure? Certain second developer reversal formulas include a fogging agent so that the second light exposure is not required. I wonder what might happen if the bleached paper was placed directly in the developer after short bleaching until the positive appears?

I guess that I'm suggesting the bleaching may complete MUCH faster than we think, and extended bleaching is only working to fade the positive dark areas, which may degrade the final result.

Best,

Don
 
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NedL

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Yeah, I've had a couple come out perfectly fine when the darks on the negative are bleached to a light tan color... which seems to mostly disappear in the final development. The light tan color is hard to see under a red safelight, and sometimes I don't notice it's there until I'm re-exposing. I'm not seeing any reversal during the bleaching. Usually they look completely white under the safelight, and when they are not done yet, it's the dark areas on the negative that I can still see. I can't remember seeing white areas on the negative turn dark in the bleach.

Today I developed one that I made last Saturday, and it was several steps backward: I used more than twice as much H2O2 to try to have deeper liquid in the tray, and I tried to keep the relative concentration of CA the same, but after almost 4 hours it was not bleached completely at the edges. I processed it anyway, and you can see it has some mottling in the highlights. I think it looks kinda cool anyway... imperfections and oddities maybe don't matter as much with the kind of pinhole photography I'm trying to use this process for.


Eucalyptus Forest
par Ned, on ipernity

( 12m exposure and it was a bit windy. Photopaper was in a coffee can w/ pinhole )
 

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You know, if the image is turning positive almost immediately in the H2O2, I have to ask.

lol it isn't .. it is remaining a negative, and unchanged even after nearly 2 days of being agitated, heated to 80ºF+ prodded,
fluid changed ( repeat ) it changed to positive or at least gave me the illusion that it did in the developer after i put it to the light
( 60W bulb 2 inches away, 1 min, front and back ) for a new york second, just before turning completely black. the one i had in the bleach the
same way, since 4pm wed afternoon, and changed out with target bleach at 900 thursday am ... i did the same thing, 100ºF water jacket
prod coax sweet talk ... i even read the print poetry in the glow of the red light for an hour ... didn't really bleach at all ... i put it under
the 300watt bulb i have, for about 20seconds front and back ... and watched in the developer, ready this time and it started to flip again
so i quickly put it into the fixer ... and ... no prize ..

ned, your results are fantastic !
im talking to sally soon ..
 

DonF

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Ned, great image. The mottling is not obvious at all. I'd love to experiment with the pinhole process with these reversal prints.

I was using 15% peroxide with citric acid, so that may have made a difference in the apparent immediate reversal and rapid bleaching.

Even though I bleached the positive to near-white in the peroxide, the developed positive image blacks were still very rich with good midtones. Odd.

My daughter and I experimented with some low key closeup reversal shots using the potassium dichromate bleach. These were done with a strong side/back light from a single strobe head at relatively low power. Even with the odd lighting angle, the Minolta IVf flash meter nailed the exposure at ISO 3, once the bellows extension factor was made. Accurate pointing of the sensor dome toward the lens from subject was necessary to capture the incident light correctly. I like the way these turned out,

img380_web.jpg
img381_web.jpg
img382_web.jpg
img383_web.jpg


Best,

Don
 
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Joe VanCleave

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Today I had time to do more reversal tests, with Arista grade 2 RC paper; week-old 1+20 Ilford multigrade paper developer replenished with 1cc of fresh concentrate; 200mL H20+1/5gram citric acid solution; 300mL 9% H2O2. The citric acid and peroxide were in separate trays, as I try a variation on what others have had good results with this week.

My processing methodology: developer 1:30; rinse in water bath :30; citric acid solution :30; peroxide bath 2:00 with GENTLE downward pushes with tongs; citric acid solution :30; peroxide bath 2:00 with GENTLE downward pushes with tongs (for a total of 5:00 bleaching time); thorough rinse under running water; fogging exposure :15 under enlarger at 16" height, f/22; standard develop, stop and fixer.

I first tried this new method on a 2-week old exposure that had been sitting in a film holder (image not shown). It reversed nicely, though the contrast was less than I expect (this was with the week-old 1+20 developer, prior to replenishment with 1cc fresh concentrate).

Next was a high-contrast morning scene in my back yard. ISO0.8, exposure 1/4s @ f/5.6. The print was very dark coming out of the first developer. Nothing much visible happened during the first :30 CA bath. But the print quickly began to bleach in the first 2:00 peroxide bath. Gentle downward pushes with tongs helps. Too much agitation doesn't work; too little doesn't work. The technique appears important, like with wet plate collodion. Into the 2nd :30 CA bath a bit more bleaching happens, due to H2O2 carry-over. During the 2nd 2:00 peroxide bath some residual gray tones bleach out, leaving only a few spots of faint gray with otherwise a white-looking print.

Backyard001 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Next I moved my Speed Graphic to the sunny front porch. These next three images were ISO 1.5, 0.8 and 0.8, respectively. The same observations apply during the bleaching steps.

Pumpkin001 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Pumpkin002 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Pumpkin003 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Note that these were high-contrast scenes, and the grade 2 paper seemed to represent the scene contrast pretty accurately. Some "freckle defects" were noted on some of the highlights, more so near the edges than the middle.

Next I wanted to try selfie portraits in subdued shade. These three are ISO 0.8, 0.8 and 1.5 respectively. Of the three I like the last one, at ISO 1.5, the best, despite the light leak from the film holder and wonky composition. Note the freckles defects again, affecting the highlights and more so near the edges.

Joe001 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Joe002 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

Joe003 by Joe Van Cleave, on Flickr

In all, I processed 8 prints with the same batch of chemicals. No evidence of exhaustion was seen, unless the freckles defects are an indication. I used 77mL of 35% H2O2 to make the 300mL of 9% concentration; and 1cc of fresh developer concentrate; along with 1/5 tsp of citric acid powder. A rather conservative usage, I'd say. Don't know how much further the bleaching would have gone.

I think it's important to go back and forth between the CA solution and peroxide. I let the prints drip just a bit between each. On one print I tried a 3rd round of :30 CA bath and 2:00 peroxide bath with no indication of further bleaching, indicating there's a limit to how far this method goes. But 5:00 total bleaching time is great. This is with a 9% peroxide concentration; a reasonable compromise between strength and safe handling.

I was happy to get good results for both sunny conditions and shaded light. The working ISO of 1.5 seems pretty consistent in both types of light for this Arista grade 2 RC paper. I should note that the contrast of the print with this grade 2 paper seems to depend a lot on the concentration of the first developer. With the week-old 1+20 concentration, the first print (not shown) was low contrast even though exposed in sunny conditions; while the 2nd print processed (the first one shown here) was very contrasty in similar light, but with freshly rejuvenated developer.

I heated my darkroom to mid-60s F with a space heater. No problems with bleaching at all, for 8 prints. I'm stoked. Hopefully I can do some 8x10 tests soon.

~Joe

EDIT: Note on the last image that the freckles defects are only seen in the fogged highlight area, indicating these are somehow related to the highlight exposure, and/or bleaching action. Note in the first pumpkin picture, at ISO 1.5, freckles are only seen on the stucco wall in the very brightest highlights.

Also, about 1 minute into the first peroxide bath the print suddenly does a sabbatier effect in the middle, as it begins to bleach. It's very noticeable, and a good indication that the bleaching is active.

NOTE: In the last three prints, spots and/or blemishes in the middle of the image are probably due to the tongs being used to push down the print in the peroxide bath, an indication of how sensitive the emulsion is during this step. A better way needs to be found to keep the paper submerged - like a thin vertical slot tank, perhaps.

The last three images were 2 second exposures. I used a 3-foot shutter release cable on the Fujinon 135/5.6 lens, and a focusing target with string attached to a yard stick for pre-focusing the camera, prior to being seated for the selfies.
 
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DonF

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Joe, nice results!

I'm thinking about the Sabatier effect you are seeing, which appears as a partial reversal of the print during bleaching. With my stronger 15% H2O2 with citric acid added, I was seeing a complete reversal of the image to positive perhaps 15 seconds after emersion. I think we are seeing the same effect. The Sabatier effect normally occurs only if light exposure occurs during the development process. I'm guessing the developing agents in the Arista paper are providing weak development action during bleaching, together with some chemical fogging effect that acts similar to light exposure. Otherwise the Sabatier effect should not be seen. Maybe a reaction with the safelight. Interesting.

Don
 
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