Showcase for Your HCWP's

KYsailor said:

That is a really nice Kallitype - beautiful tonality. I really like the neutral toning.

Well... after thinking about it a long time I took the plunge and bought a B&S Pt/Pd kit. Spent a few days linearizing a profile in QTR and ran two test prints - both about 5X7. Both came out fairly good, Dmax could be a bit better - have a tray of water in the bottom of my cabinet where I humidify my paper so the humidity was about 50-55%. Printed on HPR with the Na2 process - having done some Kallitype in the past I found this process much simpler ( but a lot more expensive) .....want to try some gum over Pt/Pd. Watched a couple of Bill Schwab videos ( so sorry to learn of his passing) and it seems fairly straightforward. I have some 5% gold chloride around from toning Kallitypes, I read that adding a drop to the Pt/Pd sensitizer would increase contrast and maybe help Dmax - anyone have any experience with that?

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Those look great to me, first attempt or not (I wouldn't have been able to tell). About how much would the solution to make one of those prints cost? I've always heard people talk about the cost of Pt/Pd which makes sense given the materials but I've never actually looked into it enough to work out a per-print price. My current processes are so cheap that I've never even considered it.

Speaking of which here's another toned cyanotype, this one was originally a 35mm negative so this print represents a 14X enlargement, and I think it holds up pretty well.

KYsailor said:

so sorry to learn of his passing....

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Ditto. This is the first time I heard about it. Over the years I have watched almost every one of his videos. Seemed pretty young.

:Niranjan.

AndrewBurns said:

Those look great to me, first attempt or not (I wouldn't have been able to tell). About how much would the solution to make one of those prints cost? I've always heard people talk about the cost of Pt/Pd which makes sense given the materials but I've never actually looked into it enough to work out a per-print price. My current processes are so cheap that I've never even considered it.

Speaking of which here's another toned cyanotype, this one was originally a 35mm negative so this print represents a 14X enlargement, and I think it holds up pretty well.

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Andrew, that's a great enlargement. In my distant past I made conventional silver gelatin prints from 35mm and my limit seemed to be getting a good 8x10.... of course Tri-x in acufine or some other "exotic" developer helped.

I bought the Pt/Pd kit from B&S for about $175 and it is supposed to make about 25 8X10's so that works out to about $7 per 8X10, these were 5X7 so about half of that - but it is on HPR at about $3/sheet (11X15) so between the chems and paper - roughly $4.50 in materials/chems for the 5X7. I just wanted to give it a try since so many alt photo printers seem to gravitate to it.

I like the process enough that I am looking at buying the raw chemicals from Artcraft (chemical supply house in New York state) - I can probably save maybe 20-25% by mixing my own. I see the B&S kit is up to $225 now due to the run up on precious metal prices ( gold over $4K per ounce!)

I had been doing some gold toned Kallitypes, that had a great neutral tone, but at the end of the day - the process is more complicated and by the time you tone, I am not sure you are saving that much.

I do wish I could find a good neutral black toner/process for cyanotypes that doesn't stain - I have tried various tannins , tannic acid and some botanicals (coffe, sweet potato skins) but none of them have been to my liking. Others have shown good results with Oak gall and some other botanicals, should probably try some of them. I think my problems are linked to my choice of paper and probably over bleaching the originals.... anyway despite the high cost I enjoy the Pt/Pd process.

nmp said:

Ditto. This is the first time I heard about it. Over the years I have watched almost every one of his videos. Seemed pretty young.

:Niranjan.

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Yes it is truly a shame, he was very dedicated to the art of alt photograpy printing, and was a real contributor to many of us just learning these processes. I heard he was leading a photo tour in Scotland and died of a heart attack.

KYsailor said:

I do wish I could find a good neutral black toner/process for cyanotypes that doesn't stain -

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Try tarragon in distilled water using Annette Golaz's method. It gives a nice neutral gray. I usually give a print a bit of extra exposure (say half a stop) when I intend to tone a cyanotype with tarragon.

Wattle (a traditional dyestuff) in distilled water also gives a fairly neutral print.

See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cyanotype-toning-options.207444/#post-2828187 for examples.

KYsailor said:

Andrew, that's a great enlargement. In my distant past I made conventional silver gelatin prints from 35mm and my limit seemed to be getting a good 8x10.... of course Tri-x in acufine or some other "exotic" developer helped.

I bought the Pt/Pd kit from B&S for about $175 and it is supposed to make about 25 8X10's so that works out to about $7 per 8X10, these were 5X7 so about half of that - but it is on HPR at about $3/sheet (11X15) so between the chems and paper - roughly $4.50 in materials/chems for the 5X7. I just wanted to give it a try since so many alt photo printers seem to gravitate to it.

I like the process enough that I am looking at buying the raw chemicals from Artcraft (chemical supply house in New York state) - I can probably save maybe 20-25% by mixing my own. I see the B&S kit is up to $225 now due to the run up on precious metal prices ( gold over $4K per ounce!)

I had been doing some gold toned Kallitypes, that had a great neutral tone, but at the end of the day - the process is more complicated and by the time you tone, I am not sure you are saving that much.

I do wish I could find a good neutral black toner/process for cyanotypes that doesn't stain - I have tried various tannins , tannic acid and some botanicals (coffe, sweet potato skins) but none of them have been to my liking. Others have shown good results with Oak gall and some other botanicals, should probably try some of them. I think my problems are linked to my choice of paper and probably over bleaching the originals.... anyway despite the high cost I enjoy the Pt/Pd process.

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Thanks, the original negative was PanF shot at f1.4 or something as it was a very dark scene and I didn't have a tripod. It's not sharp but it's the kind of photo that doesn't need to be sharp anyway.

That is kinda expensive, extrapolating that out I'd get about 12 of my current size of print from that kit, which would be $18.75 USD per print at current pricing (about $34 NZD) not including the paper. Not cripplingly expensive if you're nailing every print, but not something I'd want to be throwing a lot away of.

I guess people gravitate towards it because it's a (relatively) simple process, very archival and gives a long tonal scale and a tunable black tone.

KYsailor said:

Yes it is truly a shame, he was very dedicated to the art of alt photograpy printing, and was a real contributor to many of us just learning these processes. I heard he was leading a photo tour in Scotland and died of a heart attack.

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Yeah. Now I see there was a thread about his passing here that I missed. He was younger than me and looked very fit. Goes to show the fragility of life.

:Niranjan.

fgorga said:

Try tarragon in distilled water using Annette Golaz's method. It gives a nice neutral gray. I usually give a print a bit of extra exposure (say half a stop) when I intend to tone a cyanotype with tarragon.

Wattle (a traditional dyestuff) in distilled water also gives a fairly neutral print.

See https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/cyanotype-toning-options.207444/#post-2828187 for examples.

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Thanks Frank, I have seen many of your posts about toning cyanotype and should follow up on some of the methods you suggest. I will give tarragon a try - it's easy to obtain and I just need to get "around to it". I have a bag of birch catkins from my river birch and another of chopped up avocado seeds, both recommended by various posts I have read. On my list....

Cyanotype toned with tarragon. Made during Frank's recent workshop on cyanotype toning at Vermont Center for Photography.
Printed on Fabriano Unica

bdial said:

Cyanotype toned with tarragon. Made during Frank's recent workshop on cyanotype toning at Vermont Center for Photography.
Printed on Fabriano Unica

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Very Nice - I like it a lot, will have to try it soon. Been messing around with Pt/Pd and need to change processes. Thanks for posting - I will have to check out the courses at the Vermont center for Photography. I lived in the Albany area for many year and get back up there from time to time to visit friends.


Dave

I have a bunch of 11x14 negatives I'd like to print so I made a couple pt/pd work prints last night to get the cobwebs out of the system. Several of the negs are from Zion NP. A good start; some techniques to refine (I've been printing small recently) and other changes to make (use a bit more solution, for example) to fine tune pt/pd and get into the groove again.

This image worked out pretty sweet, but need to live with it awhile. Will re-print.
The Checkerboard Mesa area of Zion...It was quite the climb with the 11x14 (Fuji W 360/6.3).
Pt/pd on HPR, developed in warm Potassium oxalate

Vaughn said:

I have a bunch of 11x14 negatives I'd like to print so I made a couple pt/pd work prints last night to get the cobwebs out of the system. Several of the negs are from Zion NP. A good start; some techniques to refine (I've been printing small recently) and other changes to make (use a bit more solution, for example) to fine tune pt/pd and get into the groove again.

This image worked out pretty sweet, but need to live with it awhile. Will re-print.
The Checkerboard Mesa area of Zion...It was quite the climb with the 11x14 (Fuji W 360/6.3).
Pt/pd on HPR, developed in warm Potassium oxalate

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That is a truly delicious image, Vaughn!

Another toned cyanotype, need to start printing again for a show early next year.

Nothing really to show off, but a progress report. I went back to (New) cyanotype after a long interruption.
Some information:

• New cyanotype sensitizer is long-lived. Mike Ware states in one of his documents "4 to 5 years". Mine was 11 years old and worked to my full satisfaction.
• Canson Lavis Technique paper works well without acidifying.
• Adding citric acid --to keep the sensitized paper nice and yellow-- really works. At first the paper turned to lime color when drying; adding one drop of 20% citric acid per cc of sensitizer fixed that.
• Cheap OHP transparencies on a cheap inkjet (Canon 4250) can deliver digital negatives suitable for New cyanotype, provided, in the print setup, I enter manual color/intensity and push the Intensity slider to max. This might be exceeding the absorption capacity of the transparency, and I'll try better ones from Novalith.

Sample results. And, yes, I know, the brush strokes at the edge are considered bad taste.



Some questions: I made a second batch of printings of the same negatives, same chemistry, same exposure, but the prints in the second batch seem to be darker than the first. Only difference was: for the first batch, I dried each sheet, after coating, with a hair drier, while for the second batch I let the coated papers air-dry for ~1 hour. I remember reading something about hygrometry.

• Anyone knows which way it goes: more humidity ==> {darker | lighter} prints?
• Recommended method(s) to ensure consistent hygrometry (I won't buy a cigar humidifier!)
• Anyone knows a method, similar to Farmer's reducer for silver prints, to lighten a cyanotype without altering significantly the color?

Top: first batch; bottom: second batch (still damp from washing)

bernard_L said:

• Anyone knows which way it goes: more humidity ==> {darker | lighter} prints?

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Yeah, that's how (darker) I would expect.

bernard_L said:

• Recommended method(s) to ensure consistent hygrometry (I won't buy a cigar humidifier!)

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You can make your own humidity chamber with saturated salt solution which corresponds to about 77% RH, the kind they use for Ware-Malde palladium process.

bernard_L said:

• Anyone knows a method, similar to Farmer's reducer for silver prints, to lighten a cyanotype without altering significantly the color?

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Prussian blue is soluble in solutions of Na/K oxalate. It will take density away from everywhere though. You can try that. Of course you can also "bleach" it with an alkali but that turns blue into yellow ferric hydroxide, shifting the overall color a bit towards green depending on extent.

Nice prints, by the way.

:Niranjan.

Habib Saidane has a video in his YouTube channel where he takes an overexposed New Cyanotype print, bleaches it a bit with Sodium Carbonate and then redevelops in Peroxide to get a more acceptable print without the yellow that one usually sees after bleaching. I haven't tried it but could be relevant in this context.

@nmp @Raghu Kuvempunagar
Thank you for your to-the-point and detailed responses. I'll try Carbonate/Peroxide first, since I don't have Na/K oxalate at hand.

bernard_L said:

I made a second batch of printings of the same negatives, same chemistry, same exposure, but the prints in the second batch seem to be darker than the first.

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It also looks like the slow-dried sample printed faster.

I've personally not found it necessary to control humidity of the paper with New Cyanotype provided the paper is compatible with the process and the chemistry is in order. The fact that the sensitized paper shifts in color without adding citric acid suggests that you're using a carbonate-buffered paper and you may find that if you neutralize that buffer before printing, the printing becomes more consistent.

koraks said:

It also looks like the slow-dried sample printed faster.

I've personally not found it necessary to control humidity of the paper with New Cyanotype provided the paper is compatible with the process and the chemistry is in order. The fact that the sensitized paper shifts in color without adding citric acid suggests that you're using a carbonate-buffered paper and you may find that if you neutralize that buffer before printing, the printing becomes more consistent.

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I feel it is equally important to control the humidity in the paper before coating as well, if not more. My process for classic cyano is to equilibrate the paper in salt chamber overnight before coating and then after coating, air-dry the paper in a box for 15 minutes whereby the surface becomes matte followed by 8-10 min in a 50C environment for about 10 mins at which point it is bone dry. Expose right afterwards.

:Niranjan.

nmp said:

I feel it is equally important to control the humidity in the paper before coating as well, if not more. My process for classic cyano is to equilibrate the paper in salt chamber overnight before coating and then after coating, air-dry the paper in a box for 15 minutes whereby the surface becomes matte followed by 8-10 min in a 50C environment for about 10 mins at which point it is bone dry. Expose right afterwards.

:Niranjan.

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Hi Niranjan,

Is your salt chamber temperature controlled? What about your 50C environment, is that a temperature controlled box? Got me thinking about thermostats and heat pads and such......

This time of year is always more challenging because the furnace makes the air in the house dry.

Raghu Kuvempunagar said:

Habib Saidane has a video in his YouTube channel where he takes an overexposed New Cyanotype print, bleaches it a bit with Sodium Carbonate and then redevelops in Peroxide to get a more acceptable print without the yellow that one usually sees after bleaching. I haven't tried it but could be relevant in this context.

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I watched the video
and tried this on my "second batch" (too dark).

• reduces density as advertised
• but also de-saturates the characteristic cyanotype blue
• and hydrogen peroxide does not do much

I guess I'll have to pay more attention to "details" such as hygrometry.

Does Kallitype have the same demands on hygrometry control?

NedL said:

Hi Niranjan,

Is your salt chamber temperature controlled? What about your 50C environment, is that a temperature controlled box? Got me thinking about thermostats and heat pads and such......

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Yes. All I have is a plastic container with a lid at the bottom of which I put some water and enough salt so that not all is dissolved. On top of this there is a platform where put my paper and close the lid tight. Then the container goes into a big cardboard box lined with styrofoam with a temperature controller hooked to a incandescent lamp that keeps the temperature at 77C. However, RH over saturated salt has a weak dependence on temperature so perhaps one can forgo the temperature controlled box and leave the plastic container out in the room as long as the temperature does not have wild swings (as it did in my old place.)

The 50C environment is nothing but a commercial toaster oven with a convection fan that I calibrate with a temperature probe. It can take 9x12 or so size paper. I normally do one print at a time so this set up works, but someone making several print at a time might have to DIY this too.

NedL said:

This time of year is always more challenging because the furnace makes the air in the house dry.

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I know. More than the paper, my body hates it.

:Niranjan.

bernard_L said:

I watched the video
and tried this on my "second batch" (too dark).

• reduces density as advertised
• but also de-saturates the characteristic cyanotype blue
• and hydrogen peroxide does not do much

I guess I'll have to pay more attention to "details" such as hygrometry.

Does Kallitype have the same demands on hygrometry control?

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Just to make a guess, not having done any kallitypes myself, I would think it would be less of a problem. VDB one the other hand would be more influenced by humidity in the paper similar to cyanotype. The reason being, in the former, there is very little print-out forming without subsequent “development” as ferrous oxalate formed on exposure is insoluble in water so the moisture does not do much to it. Moisture in the paper before coating will still affect the outcome as it can change how much sensitizer is absorbed on the surface of the paper.

In systems using FAC (or FAO like Ware-Malde palladium or ziatype) both ferric and ferrous are soluble in water so soon as ferrous is formed on exposure, it can move around and react with its counterpart if there is sufficient moisture in the paper. In a very dry paper, this would be restricted to the very near neighbor, for the rest it would have to wait till development.

:Niranjan.

P.S. You can make your own sodium oxalate from sodium bicarb and oxalic acid for bleaching cyanotype.

Regarding cyanotype and humidity...

In my experience cyanotype is probably the process that is least sensitive to humidity. I have made successful cyanotypes with the ambient relative humidity ranging from 32% to 80%. I don't know if these are the limits as my records don't show values outside of this range.

The temperature in my unfinished basement dim room varies from about 80 deg. F (at the peak of a summer heat wave, which is also when the humidity is highest) to about 45 deg. F (during the winter when the humidity runs 40-45%). Below about 45 deg. F, I start up the wood stove and get the temperature up to the mid 50s but this lowers the humidity to below 40%.

None of this seems to affect my printing of cyanotypes. This is not the case for salted paper printing which I only attempt when the humidity is above 45%.

My un-sensitized paper is stored in the space where I print and thus is equilibrated to the ambient humidity (and temperature) at which it is printed. I have never noticed any drastic differences in how paper coats with cyanotype sensitizer and I have used many different papers.

The only accommodation I make regarding humidity is a crude adjustment to the drying time (i.e. the interval between coating and exposure). My standard drying time is 1 hour. (i never use forced air to dry coated paper.) If the humidity is above 70%, I'll add 15 min to the drying time before exposing the first sheet of paper. If the humidity is less than 40%, I'll subtract 15 min.

I say 'first sheet of paper' above because I often coat paper in small batches (say 6 or 8 sheets) for one printing session. Thus subsequent sheets are printed after longer drying times (up to maybe a couple of hours, although I do not keep detailed records on this).

As always, I like to remember that there are at least as many ways to succeed in alt process printing as there are ways to fail! Thus, one needs to test and adapt information from other practitioners to suit ones own situation.

nmp said:

Yes. All I have is a plastic container.....

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Thanks! We've got rainy days coming up so now I have another project. I'll think more about the 50C.... I suspect that convection fan is helping! Usually, I only use the hair drier for tests and photograms and such, but it would be nice to speed up the drying a little and in a consistent way. I also only make one at a time.

BTW another of your ideas, the "touchless puddle pusher" had gotten lots of use here in the past couple months ( for Furlong process calotypes, and also a few "Charles Long 2nd Process" calotypes ) and that part is working great. Nothing to show yet because I'm still trying to find a paper or a pre-treatment for paper that works well.