Multiple Layer Gum Printing

[Bob Carnie]

I just finished a bunch of tri colour Gums, for Skip Dean a local photographer, these prints will be part of two shows, one in Vancouver during Capture and the other at my gallery in Contact Toronto.

I will say that the client if looking for realism, will never be happy with what I do, they should stick with inkjet, but for an abstraction away from reality Gum prints are the bomb.

 

[MattKing]

Bob:
I hope I can get to see them during Capture.

 

[Bob Carnie]

The tri colours in matts, I am particularly happy with these prints.. I feel that the final abstraction, or the final look or the final end point did match my thought process, they are not perfect and they never will be .
Skip Dean Photographer
The Lith prints behind me are from a Series I am doing in Contact.. most of the negatives were crossed processed colour film...
Cory Wilyman Photographer.
Once again it shows me that the original... is only a piece in the complete workflow.. I only have distain
for those of us that seek perfect prints..there is no such thing.

In both cases I must point out that these are examples of what excites me after 45years of printing.

 

[Dan Pavel]

Very nice prints, Bob. They are looking very well in matts.

View attachment 196798 View attachment 196799 View attachment 196800
Once again it shows me that the original... is only a piece in the complete workflow.. I only have distain
for those of us that seek perfect prints..there is no such thing.

In both cases I must point out that these are examples of what excites me after 45years of printing.

That's exactly my opinion, too. The expressiveness of the final print is the only thing that matters, the only thing that makes the difference between a common image and a piece of art. Everything else should be subordinated to this final goal.

 

[ced]

Glad to know now that I am not completely crazy, there was a period when there was a big building site around our town as they were widening the rail lines by two additional tracks.
While the builders were here I started noticing hundreds of abandoned gloves everywhere of all shapes, sizes & colours and began photographing them in situ.
I now have several hundreds including kids mittens etc. Nice to see that they could be put to some useful presentation.
See attached screen grab of a small part.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Interesting... the photographer in question Skip Dean travels on Urban roads day in day out, and has a collection of gloves and crushed objects, oil slicks , potholes you nameit.. his project is called roadworthy art

 

[adelorenzo]

Those prints look amazing Bob ! Can't wait to see them in person.

A local photographer here also did a really cool series on found gloves.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Here is a nice article about a show we were part of and of course many of you here.

https://www.artoronto.ca/?p=41051

 

[Bob Carnie]

This show was actually the opening event for the Photrio Symposium

 

[Bob Carnie]

Here is Part One of an interview I did at Lonsdale Gallery , I hope some of you enjoy.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Part Two of the Lonsdale video

 

[himself]

I've recently been thinking about how to possibly create a colour lith print (that is, a print with the characteristics of a lith print in terms of "texture " and tone, but you know, in colour) and while doing some gum printing recently I realised that - other than hand-colouring lith prints - it may be possible to make a tri-colour gum over lith.

And off I went to experiment, first making a lith print from a K layer digital negative, and then coating my first layer of gum over the top. All this seemed to go perfectly fine and using my usual gum process, and a negative I've used before, I got the density of colour I liked, so stopped washing and hung up the print to dry ready for the next layer. But when I returned to my print I realise that the entire colour layer, rather than drying, had simply run off and was now puddled on my bathroom floor.

So my thinking now is, would fixed photo paper need to be re-sized to take a gum layer? Or could this be an exposure problem?
I've never done gum on fixed out photo paper, but assumed that like carbon printing it would be fine as is and wouldn't need to be sized.

p.s.
I'm assuming this question hasn't come up before and sorry if it has.. but I have been following along the thread since it began way back, but and to be perfectly honest, this morning I'm feeling a little too lazy to read back from the start : ) )

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have always wanted to try this with Matt paper , if you are using glossy fibre maybe this is the issue, Gum with Ammonium Dichromate hardens with exposue so I do not think this is the reason.

My worry would be subsequent registration from shrinkage of the first wetting, I would imagine one could get amazing results with gum over silver gelatin lith.

 

[adelorenzo]

I've been able to print a gum layer on top of Ilford Art 300 which can be lithed. I think I posted something in this thread.

It was mostly a proof of concept I haven't worked further with it so I can't comment on what is possible.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Art 300 has a nice tooth that could accept the gum layer.

 

[himself]

I'm using slavich unibrom (the "card" version), which is super matte, or at least mine is, but it doesn't have much tooth and is pretty smooth.

Could that be the issue?

I had thought about registration being an issue, and decided to wet the paper before using it for the initial print, but then forgot and printed it dry. Good news is tho' that registration for the moment doesn't seem to be a problem, so I'll worry about that once I get the gum to actually stick..

 

[himself]

I had a couple of days between gum printing, so decided to size (with gelatin and hardened with formalin) the latest lith print I made before trying a new layer of gum.

Unfortunately tho it doesn't seem to have helped. Th gum coated better and easier, but after exposing and developing to a density I liked it didn't dry properly again and ran away.. not completely off this time, but left a kinda streak of magenta, which is worse I guess.

Which means something else is wrong, soooooo could it be an exposure issue? would it require more exposure than normal because the gum doesn't seem to be soaking into the paper? or am I not washing it for long enough and what looks to be the gum layer running off is actually residual pigment that hasn't been hardened?

I realise it could be any of those and there's no way of guessing, so I'm just sort of talking out loud, but any ideas would be helpful.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

More exposure will reduce pigment running off the print. Have you also tried more sensitiser, or a stronger mixture? This works for me when I make carbon prints.

 

[nmp]

I had a couple of days between gum printing, so decided to size (with gelatin and hardened with formalin) the latest lith print I made before trying a new layer of gum.

Unfortunately tho it doesn't seem to have helped. Th gum coated better and easier, but after exposing and developing to a density I liked it didn't dry properly again and ran away.. not completely off this time, but left a kinda streak of magenta, which is worse I guess.

Which means something else is wrong, soooooo could it be an exposure issue? would it require more exposure than normal because the gum doesn't seem to be soaking into the paper? or am I not washing it for long enough and what looks to be the gum layer running off is actually residual pigment that hasn't been hardened?

I realise it could be any of those and there's no way of guessing, so I'm just sort of talking out loud, but any ideas would be helpful.

Wondering...are you hardening the base print and if so perhaps that might be deterring the gum layer from intermingling with the gelatin layer which might otherwise form a good bond.

 

[himself]

Have you also tried more sensitiser, or a stronger mixture?

I haven't tried that yet, but will add it to the list. For the moment I'm using everything the same as I would when printing on watercolour paper, do you think there's a reason it could be different?

Wondering...are you hardening the base print and if so perhaps that might be deterring the gum layer from intermingling with the gelatin layer which might otherwise form a good bond.

the base print may have also gotten hardened that's true, but the first couple times I tried was on a print that wasn't hardened at all and I had the same problem.. which is what led me to thinking it might need a hardened layer (like carbon printing). thanks

and just a general update, I actually just managed to wash off the magenta streaks (soaked in water for an hour) that were completely dry, so i'm thinking it might be an exposure issue after all, otherwise why would "dry" gum still wash away?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Wondering...are you hardening the base print and if so perhaps that might be deterring the gum layer from intermingling with the gelatin layer which might otherwise form a good bond.

If you are referring to a hardening fixer, then that could be an issue... but even with additional sizing after the lith print is made, pigment is still running a bit...

 

[himself]

just fyi, I didn't use a hardening fixer on the lith print : )

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I haven't tried that yet, but will add it to the list. For the moment I'm using everything the same as I would when printing on watercolour paper, do you think there's a reason it could be different?



the base print may have also gotten hardened that's true, but the first couple times I tried was on a print that wasn't hardened at all and I had the same problem.. which is what led me to thinking it might need a hardened layer (like carbon printing). thanks

and just a general update, I actually just managed to wash off the magenta streaks (soaked in water for an hour) that were completely dry, so i'm thinking it might be an exposure issue after all, otherwise why would "dry" gum still wash away?

I think watercolour paper and the paper you are lithing on are different... I gum on Arches Platine, Hahnemuhle, and Stonehenge. All of them require different exposure times for me. I've never gummed over a silver gelatin paper, so can't really help...

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

...but if I were you, to start I'd give way more exposure. Cheers and I hope you succeed!

 

[nmp]

If you are referring to a hardening fixer, then that could be an issue... but even with additional sizing after the lith print is made, pigment is still running a bit...

Yeah, that's what I meant...but I guess that was not the case so it is safe to throw that theory out....