Multiple Layer Gum Printing

Discussion in 'Hand Coated Wet Prints' started by Bob Carnie, Jul 5, 2017.

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    Bob Carnie

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    I wonder if the baryta layer is repelling the gum , when I use HPR, Arches Platine, and many other there is no clay coating that is between the paper fibres and the emulsion. Something that I would have never considered and maybe a problem for gum over silver Yes No???
     
  2. himself

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    it's always good to throw out a theory, one less thing to consider : )

    yes the paper I'm using for lith isn't much at all like watercolour paper, it's probably closer to a card probably.
    but it's interesting that you have different times for different papers, I've only ever used the same paper and never really thought about them requiring different exposure times.

    and thanks!
     
  3. Andrew O'Neill

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    I'm no expert but I think it has something to do with the makeup of each paper...surface texture, sizing, etc.
     
  4. himself

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    ooh, that's an interesting idea, and is honestly not something I would even pretend to know enough about to say one way or the other, so yes, ummm - maybe (?)
     
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    Bob Carnie

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    If you google makeup of silver gelatin paper I am sure one would find a diagram, I know some of my old books do, and the clay coating was indeed to prevent the emulsion when wet from bleeding through and maybe this
    is what you are seeing.
     
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    Bob Carnie

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    I know that with effort one can print Pt Pd on fixed out silver gelatin paper, a member from here in Manitoba has done it with great success. The treatment of the paper before coating may be where you need to experiment.
     
  7. nmp

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    That must be:

    https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...k-now-available-for-free.131189/#post-1730843

    Apparently the trick is to warm up the paper and the materials when coating. This might be a good idea for Pt/Pd as it allows the sensitizer to seep into the gelatin layer. May not be so for gum as that might make it difficult to wash out, I am guessing. Perhaps use a blank un-inked gum layer using this technique, expose and "cure" it and then do the color gum layers on top of that. Of course, all of this may still be unnecessary if the problem is solved by greater dosage.
     
  8. himself

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    quick update, I've managed to get a cyan layer to stick on a test print (also on sized lith print) by doubling the exposure and washing for longer, and i'm currently exposing the proper image now, so fingers crossed eh.

    and so it looks like the gum needs more exposure when layered on top of silver gelatin paper, my guess would be because the gum isn't sinking into the paper as it would on watercolour paper (?).
     
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    Bob Carnie

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    Post some pictures of your progress, would be nice to see.
     
  10. himself

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    will do, I'm happy to say that the latest print has worked, although it's a little uneven, which I think is due to so many attempted coatings and washes. The paper seems pretty tough tho'.

    I'm just waiting for it to dry completely and will post an image of the lith + cyan layer in the morning.

    Thanks for all the help everyone!
     
  11. himself

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    The blue* layer has dried completely now and looks to have worked, but I guess I'll see for sure when I try the next layer.

    There isn't a huge amount of detail in it because it's a tiny little print. When I had this idea I only had 1 sheet of transparency left, so all 4 layers had fit on 1 A4 :smile:
    Once I get the technique down I'm hoping to make larger prints and hopefully more of the lith texture will stand out.

    Other than that, the registration is a bit off, but only on the right side of the image, which would probably be more visible on a larger print. It's a little weird tho', it would seem that the lith image is larger than the other layer's negatives, like as if it's stretched rather than shrunk.

    anyway, here it is...

    gum over lith cyan.jpg



    *the blue is Winsor & Newton Prussian Blue
     
  12. nmp

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    Looks lovely....
     
  13. himself

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    thanks, I'm hoping to do the other layers today and make the lith of a bigger one too (still limited to 18x24 tho)
     
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    I finally managed to get the other layers on and they went down without any trouble at all. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out and for the moment there's only one layer of each colour, but I'm thinking of adding another layer of yellow to bring it out a bit more.

    The only thing left now is to clear a little dichromate staining, however last time I tried that the sodium bisulphate also bleached the lith layer, so if anyone has any alternative suggestions I'm happy to hear them.

    So here it is a - tri-colour gum lith

    lith cym final copy.jpg

    *the building (in Riga) by the way, is those colours... more or less
     
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    Bob Carnie

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    looks like you have success, pre shrinking the paper (if you can) will help with registration issues.
     
  17. himself

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    You're right, and I'm just trying to figure out a way to do it. My only option is leaving a soaked piece of paper in a paper safe over night.. but being impatient has gotten the better of me for the moment and I haven't tried it yet.
     
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    Bob Carnie

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    You will also need to keep it in dark storage or a way to hang in total darkness, or a drying cabinet .. I have thought about this gum over silver and this would be a problem area to make large prints, You can use
    digital enlarged negatives on a pin bar though to make your life easier but you need to figure this out before hand as well.
     
  19. himself

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    sorry I meant leaving it to dry in a paper safe overnight, rather than soaking it in one (which is how it reads now that I read it back). It'll dry like that, but will take a while and would be limiting in terms of size obviously. But I only have 18x24cm paper for lith anyway, so size is no problem at the moment.

    edit...
    just had a thought - A small grow tent, like the type people use as a mobile darkroom would be perfect for drying large sheets of paper. stick it up in the corner of the darkroom fill it up, zip shut and then check periodically with the lights off :smile:
     
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