Choosing between Epson V550 and Canon 9000F

[shutterfinger]

FWIW:

Left: V500, epson scan no corrections. Right: V500 vuescan Raw

Left: iV700 epson scan no corrections Right: V700 vuescan Raw.
Same scan resolution, reduction in PS5 for all.
Edit: each step = 1/2 stop increase in exposure.

 

[Ted Baker]

FWIW

Indeed , the Epson V700 can has enough Dynamic range to fit the entire range of that wedge.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Please explain what I'm looking at with those graphs. The top two V500 look the same as the bottom two for V700.

 

[shutterfinger]

Please answer the question in post 99.
Stouffer 21 step transmission/projection step wedge. Each band from 1 to 21 is a .15 increase in density, scanned at flat/default to show what the scanner produces without enhancements or multipasses.
I would like to see the same of other makes of scanners.
https://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

How do you adjust the B&W points in Epsonscan with No Color Correction selected?

You can't. A memory lapse on my part. If you check No Color Correction on the Configuration page, then you lose the manual control on the first page including Levels.

However, to adjust histogram Levels without auto color control, first turn on machine and switch to Pro Mode. Set up for film, film type, resolution etc.. Click on the Configuration button at the bottom. Check Color Control on the Configuration page. Then uncheck Continuous auto exposure under Color Control. Switch back to first page and click on Preview to see all the photos (You'll see the prescan show rather dark images because the Continuous auto control is unchecked) Now you have independent manual control on the first page to adjust levels (click the histogram) and any of the other controls one at a time or none at all.

Edit note: Auto Color Correct was changed to read Continuous auto control.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Please answer the question in post 99.
Stouffer 21 step transmission/projection step wedge. Each band from 1 to 21 is a .15 increase in density, scanned at flat/default to show what the scanner produces without enhancements or multipasses.
I would like to see the same of other makes of scanners.
https://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm

Post 99 answered in post 105.

If I understand the Stouffer results, do both the V500 and V700 have the same dMax? Both sets of scan seem the same.

I'm also confused that there are four scans:- two scans of the 21 steps for each scanner. But the results are different for the same scanner. Why two passes for each scanner?

 

[shutterfinger]

Site space editing removed the spaces that had the epson scan under the left pair and vuescan raw on the right pair.
Vuescan's exposure gives 2 steps more but steps 1 - 5 are not as sharp as epsonscan.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Site space editing removed the spaces that had the epson scan under the left pair and vuescan raw on the right pair.
Vuescan's exposure gives 2 steps more but steps 1 - 5 are not as sharp as epsonscan.

Comparative tests like this are meaningless. Without knowing what settings you're using, it proves nothing. It would be like saying that one post processing program is better than another but not knowing that it is using shadow lightening slider while the other does not use the same control in it's program even though it's available.

You could get the same results as Vuescan by using Photoshop or Elements or Lightroom on flat scan results. After all, Vuescan is just applying it's settings to the flat scan results and acting like a post processing editing program just like PS, LR and all the others.

 

[Ted Baker]

How do you adjust the B&W points in Epsonscan with No Color Correction selected?

Please answer the question in post 99.
https://www.stouffer.net/TransPage.htm

Shuttfinger, there are no manual controls that influence the way the epson scanner scans when using epson scan. The exposure control is completely automatic, all the software controls BP, WP, contrast, colour. etc are effectively post controls, that can be done in epson scan or later in something else. You can of course use those software controls to make a irreversible mess (clip all the values etc, reduce to 8bit before corrections have been made etc)

You can use manual exposure control, in vuescan. Or multiple exposure in other programs, these are indeed hardware controls, that will make a small difference in some instances... For whatever reason epson choose not to enable them in their own software.

I always use manual exposure in vuescan, (set for film base for any given type of film) which at least means I don't need to run a preview scan...

In the case of V700 someone was kind enough to run the test with the same wedge using vuescan and manual exposure, and the results clearly showed it could get all of 3.1D density in one scan.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Shuttfinger, there are no manual controls that influence the way the epson scanner scans when using epson scan. The exposure control is completely automatic, all the software controls BP, WP, contrast, colour. etc are effectively post controls, that can be done in epson scan or later in something else. You can of course use those software controls to make a irreversible mess (clip all the values etc, reduce to 8bit before corrections have been made etc)…

Ted, Some people have claimed that when using Epsonscan, you can get more bits in the scan results for the areas actually containing data bits if you set the black and white points into where the histogram ends. I've doubted that suggestion for years wondering if just allowing the full 0-255 scan would provide the same resultant scan. Do you have any knowledge about this?

 

[shutterfinger]

Epsonscan was No Color Correction or a flat scan. I'll open vuescan on the computer I scanned the step table on tomorrow as the settings do change from one session to the other and take a screen shot and post it if you want.

 

[Ted Baker]

Ted, Some people have claimed that when using Epsonscan, you can get more bits in the scan results for the areas actually containing data bits if you set the black and white points into where the histogram ends. I've doubted that suggestion for years wondering if just allowing the full 0-255 scan would provide the same resultant scan. Do you have any knowledge about this?

If you stay at 16bit and don't clip then no data or precision of that data is lost. This is not the case if you save with 8bit, and may not be case for other devices, it is certainly not the case for a device that uses a log amplifier, like found in an older drum scanner. If you work in 16bit you can move the numbers around to your hearts content but there are no fractions and the range is 0 to 65535.

However it is important to consider in particular if you are scanning a negative that the software is using an algorithm to simulate a photographic print, and how BP and WP might affect that algorithm...

 

[Kino]

Dear Gents, I wasn't going to post more images here, but I'm worried about banding in the following image. I also have a scan by a professional developer, and it too shows banding, so I don't think it's the scanning process, although that might have exacerbated it. Your thoughts appreciated.

Might be a bit of bromide drag off of the columns. How was the film processed?

 

[Rob MacKillop]

Oh, I don't know. It was from about 5 years ago, and I didn't take any records. Thanks for the interest, though, Kino. I'm starting again with MF photography, and will keep all the records I can this time. Cheers.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

One comment about the film. Make sure it's flat before using in the Epson scanner's holder. I processs all my MF film in a lab and they return it cut into 2, 3 or 4 image lengths and insert them in glassine strips to protect them. But the main thing is they get it to me flat with no curl.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

If you stay at 16bit and don't clip then no data or precision of that data is lost. This is not the case if you save with 8bit, and may not be case for other devices, it is certainly not the case for a device that uses a log amplifier, like found in an older drum scanner. If you work in 16bit you can move the numbers around to your hearts content but there are no fractions and the range is 0 to 65535.

However it is important to consider in particular if you are scanning a negative that the software is using an algorithm to simulate a photographic print, and how BP and WP might affect that algorithm...

Sorry if it's not clear to me. But does it make a difference to adjust the levels before the scan or not or just scan flat without any adjustments at all?

 

[Rob MacKillop]

One comment about the film. Make sure it's flat before using in the Epson scanner's holder. I processs all my MF film in a lab and they return it cut into 2, 3 or 4 image lengths and insert them in glassine strips to protect them. But the main thing is they get it to me flat with no curl.

Cheers, Alan. I'm now using blackandwhitefilmprocessing dot co dot uk, who send them in four glassine strips of three shots, which is perfect for scanning. The first batch arrived today, and here's the first scan.

 

[Kino]

Sorry if it's not clear to me. But does it make a difference to adjust the levels before the scan or not or just scan flat without any adjustments at all?

Yes it does make a difference; it places the data values in a different place and affects how you can subsequently manipulate the data produced. That being said, it largely depends upon the target you are scanning; will the image need drastic intervention or is it already within the dynamic range needed to produce a good image?

A well exposed negative might not need adjustments that exceed the dynamic range of what the scanner can do at default, while a heavy or very light negative might need to be scanned in a modified way.

If you are happy with the "default" (how ever you wish to define that) scan your scanner provides, then you are golden.

 

[ced]

I don't think this is the best way to check the full range of scanner.
You should find a way to mask the areas of non importance like the clear base of the transparent film and let the scanner only analyse the lightest/darkest patches with the rest in between then we can see what is the real range capability.

 

[Kino]

If you stay at 16bit and don't clip then no data or precision of that data is lost. This is not the case if you save with 8bit, and may not be case for other devices, it is certainly not the case for a device that uses a log amplifier, like found in an older drum scanner. If you work in 16bit you can move the numbers around to your hearts content but there are no fractions and the range is 0 to 65535.

However it is important to consider in particular if you are scanning a negative that the software is using an algorithm to simulate a photographic print, and how BP and WP might affect that algorithm...

While the data may all be there in a 16 bit linear scan, it doesn't have the latitude of a traditional negative; that can only faithfully represent the actual tonal values transmitted. Try to push it around too much and you'll have huge gaps in your histogram.

The Log LUT (amplifier, as you call it), remaps the tonal range in a logarithmic fashion, giving you a traditional log response and code values which looks very flat and washed-out as a positive.

 

[Kino]

I don't think this is the best way to check the full range of scanner.
You should find a way to mask the areas of non importance like the clear base of the transparent film and let the scanner only analyse the lightest/darkest patches with the rest in between then we can see what is the real range capability.

Base + fog is your Dmin.
The most dense silver or dye deposit in the frame is the Dmax.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Here is a BW image scanned in the V600 as a color 48bit, no adjustments during the scan. If you notice, the image is dark and to the left in the histogram, typical of most of my shots. The final picture is after post processing using either LR or Elements, I forget. So would I have been better off setting the black and white points before the scan or just leaving it scan flat?

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Cheers, Alan. I'm now using blackandwhitefilmprocessing dot co dot uk, who send them in four glassine strips of three shots, which is perfect for scanning. The first batch arrived today, and here's the first scan.

Nice shot and scan. 6x6 allows 4 strips of three. With my (10) 6x7's, they usually give me 3-3-2-2..

 

[Rob MacKillop]

Cheers, Alan. Thanks for your comment. No banding on these negatives.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Here's a Velvia 50 slide color shot scanned flat. Also very dark which is typical. The histogram on the ground portion runs about 0-95. The sky portion runs 140-185 approx. The final was cropped and adjusted in PS Elements.
Note the original slide was exposed properly so the original is not dark like the scan. (I bracket my shots). So the darker scan is typical for me if I scan flat. DO you guys get the same dark thing on yours?
Again, would you set black and white points for the scan or scan flat and adjust like I did in post?