110/16mm Camera Image Quality

[Cholentpot]

Small but mighty. The variety of negative borders is quite astounding. 110 pre-exposed frames, 16mm sprockets with film gate borders, the minox notch. Really helps give the image some flavor without having to think about adding it after the fact.

Inspired by JB's new macro lens, I did a quick d850 digitization of a Sonic 25 negative. Reversed 24mm af-d on bellows, so the capture is actually a crop of the original 12x17 neg... no fancy borders unfortunately.

View attachment 279018

The grain on this particular stock is practically non-existent; I'm not sure if the 100% crop shows grain or sensor noise

View attachment 279017

A bit of color, to boot. Very different colors than the scanner.

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View attachment 279019

Edit: A full frame capture with a more typical 80mm el-nikkor / bellows set up. ECN-2 really seems to confound the d850.. what happened to the red channel?

View attachment 279029

I should run a roll of 16mm through a 35mm camera again, results are fun and interesting. This here what you're talking about is what makes film the joy it is vs digital. There are so many things you can do with it, skies the limit.

 

[Huss]

I just received a new 50mm macro lens for my Nikon Z7 so I thought I would see how it works for digitizing a Minox frame.

View attachment 278955

This was shot on Acros film and developed in Xtol developer. I needed to use some extension tubes in addition to the macro lens. ---jb.

Nice!

That's the problem I am having w my Z7 + 60G macro lens. I need extension tubes to get closer, but cannot do that as the camera will not then AF, but worse, I will not be able to set the aperture.
Did you get the new AF Z 50mm macro lens?

 

[ciniframe]

For my mirrorless camera (admittedly a smaller 4:3 sensor) I use a ‘dumb’ adapter with a Vivitar 55mm f2.8 that will focus from infinity to 1:1, in a M42 mount, and with a focusing extension tube if necessary. All manual but no problem focusing on negative grain at f4 (f8-f11 at full extension) when I use magnified view.
The major problem is getting a rock steady mounting at that magnification, otherwise the image dances all over the place.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

I need extension tubes to get closer, but cannot do that as the camera will not then AF, but worse, I will not be able to set the aperture.

I use a G-Series macro lens w/ adapter and auto extension tubes on my Nikon 1 bodies with AF, VR, etc fully functional. Autofocus typically isn't a useful thing at those magnifications anyway, but lack of electronic pass-through in your extension tubes to set the aperture (in a G or Z lens) is quite a roadblock. The 1" sensor seems like it would be well-suited to 1:1 16mm copy; I'll have to give it a whirl.

The major problem is getting a rock steady mounting at that magnification, otherwise the image dances all over the place.

A good copy adapter will physically link the film and sensor planes to avoid any misalignment... a sort of 'physical vibration reduction'.

Now for some grainy content, these are 35mm captures of approximately the same 3x2mm portion of a 17x12mm Double-X negative.



A '100%' crop at this enlargement loses pretty much all visual cohesion.

 

[jbrubaker]

Nice!

That's the problem I am having w my Z7 + 60G macro lens. I need extension tubes to get closer, but cannot do that as the camera will not then AF, but worse, I will not be able to set the aperture.
Did you get the new AF Z 50mm macro lens?

Yes, I got the new 50mm Z mount macro. I am using 2 auto extension tubes, so the f-stop and auto focus still work. The new lens is a keeper - good size and quite sharp edge to edge. --jb.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Scanned print on Ilford MG RC 5x3.5"; 16mm Sonic 25 in POTA, Rokkor 30mm



Test strips makes great bookmarks fwiw

 

[ciniframe]

Yes, I got the new 50mm Z mount macro. I am using 2 auto extension tubes, so the f-stop and auto focus still work. The new lens is a keeper - good size and quite sharp edge to edge. --jb. View attachment 279063

Modern lenses are amazing but yikes! Six hundred and fifty USD for a 50mm macro! My two macros, an OM mount Sigma 50mm f2.8 (infinity to 1:1) and Vivitar 55mm f2.8 (inf. to 1:1) were $60 total, admittedly about 15-20 years ago, used but LN condition.
Can also make up a macro out of a selection of M39 mount enlarging lenses with a M39 to M42 adapter. I get it to the range needed with extension tubes, and add a focusing extension tube to fine tune the focus. With a setup like that can achieve up to 3:1 if necessary.

 

[jbrubaker]

Modern lenses are amazing but yikes! Six hundred and fifty USD for a 50mm macro! My two macros, an OM mount Sigma 50mm f2.8 (infinity to 1:1) and Vivitar 55mm f2.8 (inf. to 1:1) were $60 total, admittedly about 15-20 years ago, used but LN condition.
Can also make up a macro out of a selection of M39 mount enlarging lenses with a M39 to M42 adapter. I get it to the range needed with extension tubes, and add a focusing extension tube to fine tune the focus. With a setup like that can achieve up to 3:1 if necessary.

Yes, I know about cheaper setups. I've used enlarging lenses and older macro lenses with adapters which require stop down metering. At this point I want convenience, speed and excellent results. The new Nikon lens provides viewing wide open and automatically stops down during exposure which speeds up the scanning process considerably. Digitizing a roll of 36 exp film is very fast with this lens. It's also a really sharp general purpose 50mm lens. --jb.

 

[ciniframe]

I understand, not disparaging any persons choice in lenses and ever since the 70’s when I worked in a camera store Nikon had a good reputation, the then current 50mm f3.5 macro Nikkor was often used as a standard, walk around lens. It was very popular. And, with inflation factored in I’m sure the current 50mm macro is no more expensive today.

 

[Huss]

Yes, I got the new 50mm Z mount macro. I am using 2 auto extension tubes, so the f-stop and auto focus still work. The new lens is a keeper - good size and quite sharp edge to edge. --jb. View attachment 279063

Whoa! I had no idea that you can get extension tubes for the Z lens that still allows AF and F stops.. Thanks for the info!!
Could you tell me the exact model/make of the tubes you are using? I can see it says Fotodiox.

Last night I decided I wanted to get closer than my 60 2.8G allowed for my 110 'scans'. The 60 is perfect for 35mm film and larger, but I need to crop the image for 110.
I remembered (!) that I had a 55 2.8 MicroNikkor, and used the PK13 and PK12 extension tubes.

With the 60mm lens the largest capture (cropping out the non-image stuff) I could get from 110 using my Z7 is 4100x2800. With the 55mm + extension tubes it is 5300x3700 which is a significant jump so that's going to be my 110 set up.

With 55mm:

Rollei A110, Fuji Superia 200

 

[ciniframe]

From the picture of the tubes it looks like the brand is Fotodiox Pro. I think they have their own website.

 

[Huss]

From the picture of the tubes it looks like the brand is Fotodiox Pro. I think they have their own website.

Thanks, I found all the info on their website.

 

[Cholentpot]

I've used the Nikkor 55 macro with tubes and it is sharper than my EF 100 2.8 and gets closer but it's more difficult to work with so I sacrifice a bit.

 

[Huss]

Rollei A110, Fuji Superia 200

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

MG-s 1/500s shutter priority, 25cm focus
Vision3 500T @ 400, Daylight; ECN-2, copper sulfate bleach



Edit: Same as above, but reversal processed, minus orange mask

 

[Cholentpot]

MG-s 1/500s shutter priority, 25cm focus
Vision3 500T @ 400, Daylight; ECN-2, copper sulfate bleach

View attachment 279387 View attachment 279388 View attachment 279389

Edit: Same as above, but reversal processed, minus orange mask
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Very nice. Excellent colors and focus.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

The 500T negs came out much closer to daylight balance than expected. I've noticed certain films (2254 comes to mind) tend to balance warmer as they're overexposed... but the quarter-stop here doesn't seem like it would be significant. The negatives were bleached back to AgCl and ran another 1:30 in the developer so perhaps that had a warming effect. Fun to mess around with regardless.

Regular processing, rendering under tungsten is spot on.

 

[Donald Qualls]

My choice was simple: I don't think my printer (Monoprice Delta Mini) is particularly good at anything besides PLA, so PLA it is. If need be, I will paint the exterior of those cassettes for better light-proofness. And that will be important, because I feel like fussing with 800-speed color negatives.

I print PETG at 235C nozzle and 55-60C bed temp on PEI (equivalent) coated magnetic build sheet on my Ender 3. If your Monoprice will get to that temperature set, you should be able to do so as well.

That said, I printed an opacity test and found Sun Lu black PLA is opaque enough (at least to the eyeball against a 15W CFL ceiling fixture) as long as you have at least 1 mm thickness (probably okay at 0.75 mm = ~1/32 inch). On that basis, I printed a 4x5 pinhole camera (MUTO -- 25mm projection distance, movable pinhole plate for rise, shift, or rise+shift with a single pinhole), which has ~2mm front plate and 1.5mm pinhole plate thickness (and much thicker main body). Once I get some screws and nuts, and a can of flat black paint, I'll get it assembled and test it with some Foma 400 to make sure it's really light tight.

I haven't looked closely at the wall thickness on the Minolta cartridge; it may or may not be thick enough to work with black PLA without additional light masking.

 

[Cholentpot]

The 500T negs came out much closer to daylight balance than expected. I've noticed certain films (2254 comes to mind) tend to balance warmer as they're overexposed... but the quarter-stop here doesn't seem like it would be significant. The negatives were bleached back to AgCl and ran another 1:30 in the developer so perhaps that had a warming effect. Fun to mess around with regardless.

Regular processing, rendering under tungsten is spot on.

View attachment 279411

I need to up my development game it looks like. My 500T colors are terrible.

 

[4season]

16 mm is proving to be one of my craftsier photo projects: I found a Mamiya 16 Super II at an attractive price because it was sold "For parts / as-is". Fortunately, despite it's diminutive size, it wasn't too hard to service. Mamiya applied grease with a generous hand, but after 60 years, it was in dire need of a freshening up. Shutter speed escapement was bone-dry, focusing helicoid was frozen, and link to the focus control was bent, but the remedies were straightforward.

I 3D-printed a film slitter, and am currently in the process of printing film cassettes. I needed to slightly modify the latter as the designer had assumed single-spindle only, but the Super has a spindle on the supply side of the cassette too: It simply twirls a visual indicator which lets you know that film is advancing properly. The feature was removed from newer Mamiya-16 cameras for good reason: It makes loading the cassette into the camera a lot trickier! It took me awhile but I think I figured out a simple technique which lets me drop the cassette into place without undue frustration or film-wastage: Start with the supply spindle first, lining up the mating parts hand if necessary, and once that drops into place deal with the take-up spindle, which is lots easier. But it's no wonder that Mamiya went through a number of iterations of their film cassettes!

 

[Donald Qualls]

That's nice. It's 10x14 negative, right, can use double perf if you choose, but doesn't need any perfs (just like original Minolta 16 family)?

 

[Cholentpot]

16 mm is proving to be one of my craftsier photo projects: I found a Mamiya 16 Super II at an attractive price because it was sold "For parts / as-is". Fortunately, despite it's diminutive size, it wasn't too hard to service. Mamiya applied grease with a generous hand, but after 60 years, it was in dire need of a freshening up. Shutter speed escapement was bone-dry, focusing helicoid was frozen, and link to the focus control was bent, but the remedies were straightforward.

I 3D-printed a film slitter, and am currently in the process of printing film cassettes. I needed to slightly modify the latter as the designer had assumed single-spindle only, but the Super has a spindle on the supply side of the cassette too: It simply twirls a visual indicator which lets you know that film is advancing properly. The feature was removed from newer Mamiya-16 cameras for good reason: It makes loading the cassette into the camera a lot trickier! It took me awhile but I think I figured out a simple technique which lets me drop the cassette into place without undue frustration or film-wastage: Start with the supply spindle first, lining up the mating parts hand if necessary, and once that drops into place deal with the take-up spindle, which is lots easier. But it's no wonder that Mamiya went through a number of iterations of their film cassettes!

View attachment 279618

I've been hunting for the Mamiya 16 for a while. I don't feel like paying a premium price and have thought about picking up an untested one. I'd curious to see the results of a roll.

 

[Huss]

16 mm is proving to be one of my craftsier photo projects: I found a Mamiya 16 Super II at an attractive price because it was sold "For parts / as-is". Fortunately, despite it's diminutive size, it wasn't too hard to service. Mamiya applied grease with a generous hand, but after 60 years, it was in dire need of a freshening up. Shutter speed escapement was bone-dry, focusing helicoid was frozen, and link to the focus control was bent, but the remedies were straightforward.

I 3D-printed a film slitter, and am currently in the process of printing film cassettes. I needed to slightly modify the latter as the designer had assumed single-spindle only, but the Super has a spindle on the supply side of the cassette too: It simply twirls a visual indicator which lets you know that film is advancing properly. The feature was removed from newer Mamiya-16 cameras for good reason: It makes loading the cassette into the camera a lot trickier! It took me awhile but I think I figured out a simple technique which lets me drop the cassette into place without undue frustration or film-wastage: Start with the supply spindle first, lining up the mating parts hand if necessary, and once that drops into place deal with the take-up spindle, which is lots easier. But it's no wonder that Mamiya went through a number of iterations of their film cassettes!

View attachment 279618

So cool!!! Looking forward to pics with it.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

16 mm is proving to be one of my craftsier photo projects: I found a Mamiya 16 Super II at an attractive price because it was sold "For parts / as-is"
View attachment 279618

Slick as hell and a contender for 'Camera Odd-couple 2021'. A threaded cable release and bulb mode are sorely missing from my 16mm minoltas. I'll probably pick up a 16ii at some point just for the bulb mode and maybe get some sort of 3D printed bracket to facilitate a cable release.

Huss's A110 shots have led me to research Rollei's 16mm offerings and (perhaps not surprisingly) the Rollei 16(s) is a thing. The cartridges are even weirder than I was expecting, but there is at least one 3d printed solution on offer. They appear to all be in Europe and the prices are a bit too dear for me but I bet that viewfinder is nuts.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I'll probably pick up a 16ii at some point just for the bulb mode and maybe get some sort of 3D printed bracket to facilitate a cable release.

From time to time you see a Minolta "clamp" that fits the 16 and 16II (may be different clamps, I only have one) -- this provides a tripod socket as well as cable release mount. It's metal, so it's thin and compact -- a 3D printed part would have to be bulkier not to be too fragile.

Then again, with 3D printing, you could make a similar add-on for a Kiev 30 (which also has B, plus a focusing lens -- the 303 doesn't have B or PC sync).