What Gray Card?

[takilmaboxer]

My apologies as I was also referring to monochrome photography. Color work is a very different animal, requiring expertise that I lack.

 

[snusmumriken]

Gentlemen, although others also mentioned palm readings, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. Because, if you have a light meter in hand, why not simply meter the subject range? Are grey cards or palm readings even needed?

I can think of situations. For instance, suppose you want a portrait à la Jane Bown in natural window light of someone who hasn’t arrived yet, has only limited time to spare, and is known to hate being photographed. You’d want to figure out the best places to put the sitter in advance.

Similarly in street photography where the light may be constant but there are light and dark sides of the street.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Yeah, B&W is just all grayscale relative. Color film involve hue saturation relative to a standardized midpoint, and not ordinarily adjustable.

 

[Pieter12]

I can think of situations. For instance, suppose you want a portrait à la Jane Bown in natural window light of someone who hasn’t arrived yet, has only limited time to spare, and is known to hate being photographed. You’d want to figure out the best places to put the sitter in advance.

Similarly in street photography where the light may be constant but there are light and dark sides of the street.

Assuming you have a way to place the gray card in the position you want for the sitter. An assistant comes in handy in those situations, both to take meter readings and to rehearse the pose and even to hold a reflector for fill. I would rather take the time to study the back of my hand in the window light to judge the best angle for the sitter than take a gray card reading. Taking a reading takes only a moment with the sitter in place, with or without a gray card.

 

[wiltw]

Gentlemen, although others also mentioned palm readings, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. Because, if you have a light meter in hand, why not simply meter the subject range? Are grey cards or palm readings even needed?

Not all folks use an incident meter. To 'have a meter' might mean nothing other than the reflected light meter built into the camera they have.
And if that is the case, that means that the reflected light meter can be fooled by 'subject failure' -- what Kodak used to refer to subjects which did not average to 18% gray, like a bride in white gown alone and filling the frame or a groom in black tux alone and filling the frame.
Or, you use the gray card in the classic white snow filled scene which biases reflect light meters wrongly to underexpose even a person dressed so they match the 18% gray assumption. The gray card would be held up to fill the frame, rather than the white gowned bride filling the frame...and the camera meter would correctly give an exposure that would not be underexposing because the meter was fooled.
Metering the subject range assumes the meter has spot capability and the areas read are no smaller than the spot area of the meter...a handheld meter with a 10 degree spot angle might not work well when the subject is too far away.

 

[Sirius Glass]

As Drew pointed out the palm exposures many vary for some people but the total range of variation would be less than a quarter f/stop at most and that is easily within making each person's hand will work and with a small personal adjustment.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I have a Kenyan friend of quite dark complexion, but whose palms are brighter than mine. But I also grew up among American Indians whose palms were nearly as dark as the rest of their skin, more like Zone III instead of Zone VI. You might conclude that is due to variations in genetics or is due to lifestyle, since that Indian tribe was still constantly handling oak derivatives high in tannic acid. Regardless, the whole point is not to cite Aristotle, but go directly to the horse's mouth. If your palm does not apply to the 1 EV-over generalization, then in your case, it simply doesn't work. In my case, one hand is relatively consistent, the other hand covered with age spots, both much darker and much lighter. But I use a spot meter and not averaging meter, so by the terms of this debate, I should put a label on my meter : "only read left hand".
I wonder what kind of sirius advice should be given to a photographer with albinism.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Just adjust your setting for whatever your palm reads.

 

[wiltw]

Just adjust your setting for whatever your palm reads.

...indeed. The conundrum:

One needs the reference tonality surface to figure out how much you own palm deviates from the brightness that a lightmeter is calibrated to read per ISO standard.​

a bit like setting your watch to a second watch...is IT set to be correct/slow/fast?!

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

...indeed. The conundrum:

One needs the reference tonality surface to figure out how much you own palm deviates from the brightness that a lightmeter is calibrated to read per ISO standard.​

a bit like setting your watch to a second watch...is IT set to be correct/slow/fast?!

Would checking it in the noon day sun and using the f16 standard work?

 

[xkaes]

Not all folks use an incident meter. To 'have a meter' might mean nothing other than the reflected light meter built into the camera they have.

Not so. Just put a Styrofoam cup over the lens, and point it to where the camera will be. Instant incident meter. Wins hands down -- I mean palms down.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Not so. Just put a Styrofoam cup over the lens, and point it to where the camera will be. Instant incident meter. Wins hands down -- I mean palms down.

With or without coffee in it?

 

[DREW WILEY]

Styrofoam isn't biodegradable; palms are.

 

[eli griggs]

Not so. Just put a Styrofoam cup over the lens, and point it to where the camera will be. Instant incident meter. Wins hands down -- I mean palms down.

I've used this method for many years, when needed, ie, when I only have a spotmeter and want an incidental reading.

This is also one part of the reasons why I like Weston Master IV & V meters, the "Intercone" attachment, designed for this very purpose, with a twist.

 

[eli griggs]

You can also use a styrofoam plate to make cutouts that will fit in empty "Series" filter rings, for both pre-flashing and insidental meter reading with the camera's meter.

Or simply hold a plate over the lens.

 

[wiltw]

Would checking it in the noon day sun and using the f16 standard work?

...well, according to multiple test readings I have done on different days, the f/16 Rule of Thumb is a really fat thumb...
Finding a post I made years ago,

"at N38 degrees latitude, 1pm, in my back yard, with the incident light meter hemisphere held horizontal (aimed 'at the lens')...​

ISO 100, 1/100 f/16.0, and moving full circle the meter deviated to +0.1EV and -1.9EV"​

so although it was outdoors in the overhead sun, it really depended upon in what direction your shooting angle placed you relative to your subject

Back to the discussion of 'average palm', I found and old POTN post of mine in which I quoted Kodak on the topic, in 2010 (the link no longer works, now that Kodak is a shadow of itself):

Taken from the Kodak web site http://www.kodak.com/cluster/global/en/consumer/products/techInfo/af9/index.shtml​

"Substitute Readings​

What if you can't walk up to your subject to take a meter reading? For instance, suppose that you're trying to photograph a deer in sunlight at the edge of a wood. If the background is dark, a meter reading of the overall scene will give you an incorrect exposure for the deer. Obviously, if you try to take a close-up reading of the deer, you're going to lose your subject before you ever get the picture. One answer is to make a substitute reading off the palm of your hand, providing that your hand is illuminated by the same light as your subject, then use a lens opening 1 stop larger than the meter indicates. For example, if the reading off your hand is f/16, open up one stop to f/11 to get the correct exposure. The exposure increase is necessary because the meter overreacts to the brightness of your palm which is about twice as bright as an average subject. When you take the reading, be sure that the lighting on your palm is the same as on the subject. Don't shade your palm. "​

​

Based upon recent thread discussion about the applicability (or not) of palm being +1EV , Kodak really was the 'great white Father' although Kodak had already adopted multiracial Shirley card for processor calibration testing from 1996.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I have a Kenyan friend of quite dark complexion, but whose palms are brighter than mine. But I also grew up among American Indians whose palms were nearly as dark as the rest of their skin, more like Zone III instead of Zone VI. You might conclude that is due to variations in genetics or is due to lifestyle, since that Indian tribe was still constantly handling oak derivatives high in tannic acid. Regardless, the whole point is not to cite Aristotle, but go directly to the horse's mouth. If your palm does not apply to the 1 EV-over generalization, then in your case, it simply doesn't work. In my case, one hand is relatively consistent, the other hand covered with age spots, both much darker and much lighter. But I use a spot meter and not averaging meter, so by the terms of this debate, I should put a label on my meter : "only read left hand".
I wonder what kind of sirius advice should be given to a photographer with albinism.

Start with stopping down 1 f/stop, 1.5 f/stops and 2 f/stops and see which is the best match. One who keeps hands in dark dyes would obviously not be metering off the palms, but everyone other than you were talking about normal people.

 

[snusmumriken]

Assuming you have a way to place the gray card in the position you want for the sitter. An assistant comes in handy in those situations, both to take meter readings and to rehearse the pose and even to hold a reflector for fill. I would rather take the time to study the back of my hand in the window light to judge the best angle for the sitter than take a gray card reading. Taking a reading takes only a moment with the sitter in place, with or without a gray card.

Of course - but in many situations, for ordinary folk, both an assistant and time would be quite a luxury, as would a reflector.

A real example: my daughter, aged 12, was dressing up for some history event at school. She was about to leave, late already, mother outside in the car waiting. I had no previous idea what her costume would be like, but when I saw it I wanted a photo. She said yes, but was already dashing upstairs for something she had forgotten. I grabbed my camera, which was loaded with HP5+, decided on the kitchen window for light, used the camera's meter (awkward) to quickly get readings off my hand, both light and shadow sides, and set 1 stop more than the light-side reading. Absolutely no time for further thought. Daughter reappeared, I stood her by the kitchen sink, and took two frames. The first had the lighting too frontal and a gaping expression, so I got her to move slightly and the second turned out good. Some luck involved, but I would have been lost without the hand trick. I do own a Kodak grey card and an incident meter and many things that could be used as reflectors, but when the occasion arose none were within reach. The camera itself is always handy.

(Unfortunately that roll was fated. It came off the spool at the cassette end (home load from bulk, bad choice of tape) and I pulled the film sideways out of the take-up spool (Leica M tulip grip) in the darkroom. The good photo ended up with a deep scrape in the emulsion right across my daughter's throat, which of course is disturbing to any dad. So I had to resort to digital retouching of that bit. With hindsight, I should have re-attached the cassette end in the darkroom and re-wound as normal.)

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Pretty daughter, nice shot.

 

[pentaxuser]

snusmumriken, nice portrait. Having an interest in historical dress, can I ask was it a play set in the late Elizabethan/ Jacobean era?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[snusmumriken]

snusmumriken, nice portrait. Having an interest in historical dress, can I ask was it a play set in the late Elizabethan/ Jacobean era?

Pretty daughter, nice shot.

Many thanks! Daughters look best to their dads, of course.

@pentaxuser: Not a play, just a costume day. This was supposedly Elizabethan, home-made as best she could.

 

[pentaxuser]

Many thanks! Daughters look best to their dads, of course.

@pentaxuser: Not a play, just a costume day. This was supposedly Elizabethan, home-made as best she could.

Thanks I think it looks pretty authentic

pentaxuser

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Many thanks! Daughters look best to their dads, of course.

@pentaxuser: Not a play, just a costume day. This was supposedly Elizabethan, home-made as best she could.

My daughter on Velvia 50 6x7, awhile ago obviously.

 

[DREW WILEY]

So sirius, siriusly, you think all "normal people" have exactly the same amount of melanin on their palms, regardless of ethnic background, and that, that itself doesn't respond to differential tanning? That's quite a leap of faith. Think I'll stick with my standardized MacBeth Chart; and even that I keep out of the sun except for brief film testing purposes.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

Photographers should keep their palms out of the sun.