What Gray Card?

DREW WILEY · Apr 29, 2023

Why not? Because there's nothing constant about the shade palm of your hand. Maybe people got away with it back in the days of very wide latitude low contrast color neg films; but it was hardly accurate even then. And it assumes that every photographer is of the white ethnicity and spends little time in the sun.

Any why not any gray value as long as you're used to it? I guess if you never switch anything up, or ever need to critically evaluate film speed or its color balance before using it.

takilmaboxer · Apr 30, 2023

If the photographer isn't white, they can still calibrate the reflectivity of their palm and use it as a guide. This is not a technique for slide films with their narrow latitude but it works fine for B/W, especially with modern films with a wide latitude. The idea that every exposure needs to be metered to within a quarter stop is silly. If you're doing street photography you don't have time, anyway. In high mountain landscape work the pattern of clouds/sun and rock/snow can change rapidly and constantly and familiarity with your film is much more important.
Not everybody has a huge view camera and plenty of time to decide on an exposure.

Stephen Benskin · Apr 30, 2023

It's not just about the RD. Different materials will respond differently to different wavelengths (as will the exposure meter).

Kodak Gray Card R-27 brochure.

And some directions on use:

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Why not? Because there's nothing constant about the shade palm of your hand. Maybe people got away with it back in the days of very wide latitude low contrast color neg films; but it was hardly accurate even then. And it assumes that every photographer is of the white ethnicity and spends little time in the sun.

Any why not any gray value as long as you're used to it? I guess if you never switch anything up, or ever need to critically evaluate film speed or its color balance before using it.

The point is just knowing what exposure your palm is. That's your standard. It doesn't matter what color or shade other photographers' palms are.

DREW WILEY · Apr 30, 2023

Are YOUR palms always the same shade? One thing in an indoor winter, maybe another after a tropical cruise or sunny weeks outdoors gardening.

pentaxuser · Apr 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Are YOUR palms always the same shade? One thing in an indoor winter, maybe another after a tropical cruise or sunny weeks outdoors gardening.

Drew, I didn't think palms change much if at all whether on a tropical cruise or an indoor winter. Mine never seemed to even after a long summer mostly outdoors

If there is a significant difference I'd have thought those authors on exposure such as Carson Graves or Fred Picker might have mentioned it when referring to the palm as an exposure standard

Is it possible that we can seek out a 100% accuracy in exposure when such accuracy may not matter or in the circumstances of the taking of the shot may not be possible as others have alluded to ?

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Why not? Because there's nothing constant about the shade palm of your hand. Maybe people got away with it back in the days of very wide latitude low contrast color neg films; but it was hardly accurate even then. And it assumes that every photographer is of the white ethnicity and spends little time in the sun.

Any why not any gray value as long as you're used to it? I guess if you never switch anything up, or ever need to critically evaluate film speed or its color balance before using it.

Actually all races have almost the same color palms since there is very little melanin on the palm.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2023

takilmaboxer said:
If the photographer isn't white, they can still calibrate the reflectivity of their palm and use it as a guide. This is not a technique for slide films with their narrow latitude but it works fine for B/W, especially with modern films with a wide latitude. The idea that every exposure needs to be metered to within a quarter stop is silly. If you're doing street photography you don't have time, anyway. In high mountain landscape work the pattern of clouds/sun and rock/snow can change rapidly and constantly and familiarity with your film is much more important.
Not everybody has a huge view camera and plenty of time to decide on an exposure.

My black friends will tell you that it works for taking slides too.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Are YOUR palms always the same shade? One thing in an indoor winter, maybe another after a tropical cruise or sunny weeks outdoors gardening.

Yes, because palms and sole of feet have very little melanin in them.

wiltw · Apr 30, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Why not? Because there's nothing constant about the shade palm of your hand. Maybe people got away with it back in the days of very wide latitude low contrast color neg films; but it was hardly accurate even then. And it assumes that every photographer is of the white ethnicity and spends little time in the sun.

The concept was that the palm of the hand was +1EV compared to 18% gray for EVERYONE, regardless of ethnic background, and the palms did not 'tan' notably.
I have Asian heritage. Right now my palm measures +1.3EV compared to 18% gray. My wife and I are off to Hawaii for 10 days in late May, I will report back what my palm reads after that period in near-Paradise.

eli griggs · Apr 30, 2023

Sirius Glass said:
Actually all races have almost the same color palms since there is very little melanin on the palm.

This is what I've learned many years back, and looking at the palms of other people, it seems to be good advice.

If shooting people, outside or in, by metering, have them hold their palm, with a very slight downward slant, by their face or other area of interest, meter that and shoot it as an index for the rest of the roll.

If you're curious, have them hold a favorite grey card for another frame for comparison.

Sirius Glass · Apr 30, 2023

eli griggs said:
This is what I've learned many years back, and looking at the palms of other people, it seems to be good advice.

If shooting people, outside or in, by metering, have them hold their palm, with a very slight downward slant, by their face or other area of interest, meter that and shoot it as an index for the rest of the roll.

If you're curious, have them hold a favorite grey card for another frame for comparison.

Especially for slides, you should turn the palm to match the shade or reflectance of the subject before taking the reading.

pentaxuser · Apr 30, 2023

wiltw said:
The concept was that the palm of the hand was +1EV compared to 18% gray for EVERYONE, regardless of ethnic background, and the palms did not 'tan' notably.
I have Asian heritage. Right now my palm measures +1.3EV compared to 18% gray. My wife and I are off to Hawaii for 10 days in late May, I will report back what my palm reads after that period in near-Paradise.

Yes, good idea and that report might be crucial for the sake of grey card standards. If I were in near Paradise my palms might be at times be sweaty but does that alter the accuracy of them for the perfect exposure

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · Apr 30, 2023

Wilt and eli - the front of my hand and the back are nearly the same, and I'm outdoors a lot. My wife is Chinese, and the palm of her hand and skin in general is much brighter than mine. Do you imagine I've never done mixed ethnicity shots, or individuals where your generalization would be laughable? I grew up with American Indians. Not one of them had anything remotely close to a "Zone VI" palm. Maybe nowadays their mixed ancestry grandchildren do. But go back to your Phrenology or other bogus ethnic textbooks. When my brother was taught that palm of rule in Brooks Photo Academy in the early 60's, it seemed that every single student and instructor was of European ancestry. That hardly makes it a universal axiom.

pentaxuser · Apr 30, 2023

What does the medical evidence that I assume form the basis of your statements suggest, Drew? I'd be interested in seeing them

Thanks

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · Apr 30, 2023

Where have you been your whole life? Go running around the streets of multi-ethnic London with a light meter and read the palms of people. The burden of proof is not on me. It's on the hearsay that everyone allegedly has the same palm reflectance value no matter who they are. That hypothesis doesn't hold true even under my own roof. But what the heck would I know? I only have a Biology degree, and my wife only has a Medical profession plus a Biotech background in DNA science. So why don't YOU try digging up some medical literature anywhere other than Nazi eugenics archives that shows all palms are or should be the same? Gosh, how about a little common sense here? Sounds like some of us are still back in the gray ages, not fully out of the dark ages yet. Go ask Merlin. But try the same question on a Dermatologist, and they'll probably look at you like you're nuts.

Even the photo schools or Kodak literature ever made that claim. They did advise using a "typical Caucasian palm" in lieu of a light meter one stop above. But get out in the desert or up in high mountain UV for a long time, and it's another story. There's a reason former Miss Coppertone is now Mizz Prunedale. Generalizations always need to be qualified.

eli griggs · Apr 30, 2023

Conflating the photocentric "rule of 'palm'" into an indicator of active racism is the very worse of bigotry, and is no less an insult than calling the others racists because they take a non-race based viewpoint different from the Intolerant Left or an unhinged raciest Nationalism view point too prevalent in the World today, particularly in the U.S.A..

This photo topic is like any other and your milage may varie, but is in no way an racist meme or degeneration of others whom walk the same streets as we do.

Stick to photographic topics and oberservation and save your bigotry for other bigots elsewhere, please.

DREW WILEY · Apr 30, 2023

Huh? This is about gray scales. Sounds like you're the one trying to leverage it off the tracks with a chip on your shoulder and unwarranted name calling. You don't even know me. This is getting ridiculous. The Moderator is more than welcome to remove ALL my posts on this thread and responses to it if they wish. Or I might do it myself. I challenge a ridiculous unscientific stereotype and am asked for provide the proof??? It should be the other way around. But I guess if you allow for the wild variance in gray cards themselves, due to frequently poor quality control, just about any opinion could be justified. I'm out. Have better things to do or comment on.

xkaes · Apr 30, 2023

Sounds like the obvious solution -- and I don't mean Coppertone -- is to read the palm of the person you are taking a picture of. Best of all, you can charge them extra for palm-reading!!!

Meanwhile, I'll stick with my incident meter.

snusmumriken · May 1, 2023

Coming late to this discussion of palms. From time to time I have puzzled over the practicality of taking meter readings off my palm using the meter in my camera, which requires 2 more hands to make the adjustments. What I have noticed - which echoes the point made by @wiltw in post #28 - is that the reading is highly variable depending on orientation. Not really a surprise, that, but important. Also that the concave palm and the convex back of the hand are quite good models of different bits of the human face, again subject to orientation.

takilmaboxer · May 1, 2023

Pass the popcorn, please!

Stephen Benskin · May 1, 2023

With all the arguing about palms, there's something that went by without notice. Kodak's direction on the use of the gray card. And thanks to @snusmumriken for pointing out that orientation affects the results. Palms also reflect a lot of infrared.

pentaxuser · May 1, 2023

DREW WILEY said:
Where have you been your whole life? Go running around the streets of multi-ethnic London with a light meter and read the palms of people. The burden of proof is not on me. But what the heck would I know? I only have a Biology degree, and my wife only has a Medical profession plus a Biotech background in DNA science. Gosh, how about a little common sense here? But try the same question on a Dermatologist, and they'll probably look at you like you're nuts.

Drew. on the assumption that your post was aimed at me I have cut out all your comments about Nazi eugenics etc and running around London checking on people's palms

As you have a Biology degree and your wife has the quals you mention I'd have thought you might have wished to refer me to the source of your statement that palms change in the sun. A link to your source isn't too much of a burden, is it as I presume you or your wife have seen/studied such literature at first hand?

OK if you are now "out" of this thread then we cannot expect any further participation in this thread on your part and I accept your stance. It's your choice. All I will say is that on this or any other thread there may be questions about your statements and sources that can be expected and on occasions polite challenges may be made

That's the nature of forums, isn't it or so I would have thought?

pentaxuser

DREW WILEY · May 1, 2023

"Link" to what "source"?. My gosh, is this an era where alleged research is just a click of a mouse away form some half-baked web opinion somewhere or other? Guess so. But I certainly wasn't implying that you or anyone else here has a Nazi mentality. I've actually seen Nazi eugenics manuals at rare book shows, and how they tried to lump various human features into very narrow categories and stereotypes irrespective of any real genetic science. And that's the only kind of place I can think of where a pseudo-study would have been made about the tone of people's palms. And like I said, the whole notion was sound ridiculous to a dermatologist or ethnologist who has seen many many hand. I was just employing that as hyperbole. There's nothing that sinister in any of this palm reflectance value talk.

But if you want to make an analogy between skintone and gray cards, I've never seen a living human being that looked gray other than gray hair. Palms might be whitish, or pinkish, or all kinds of flavors of tan and brown, while all my light meters all have peak sensitivity at green, just like most modern meters and human vision itself. Neutral Gray reflects green and other colors neutrally, while pink or tan or whatever do not. One more strike to that idea of realistic interchangeability.

And the presence of color on your "standard" does make a significant difference. That's why a serious color chart like the MacBeth includes representative skintone patches as well as neutral gray and strongly colored ones. An 18% tan is going to give a different reading with a common light meter than the neutral gray 18% version. They base it on spectrometer reading. I've spent many many hours studying all this in detail in my own lab, with my own special instrumentation. I'm not against the casual use of palms when the nature of the film itself forgives it; but being from a less forgiving chrome film background, I sure know the difference, and the pitfalls involved.

takilmaboxer · May 1, 2023

Gentlemen, although others also mentioned palm readings, my comment was meant to be tongue in cheek. Because, if you have a light meter in hand, why not simply meter the subject range? Are grey cards or palm readings even needed?

What Gray Card?

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