Top Of The Line 1-Degree Meters Don't Support "Zone" Metering??

DREW WILEY · Jan 31, 2018

The AA Zone System is a useful set of training wheels before you get full confidence. But God didn't create the world in just eight zones, and even Kodak didn't create film that way. Films differ. I frequently encounter scenes with 12 stops of range. I prefer a film that will handle that range rather than taking an "average" film where I'm supposed to scrunch the tonal separation between Z 2 and 7. Low contrast scenes are different. I don't want some program telling me what to do. The scale on the Pentax is super easy to set and read, and is graduated in EV units, so you can instantly choose as many Zones as you wish either up or down from the mid gray triangle. The Minolta Spotmeter F reads identically, but is slower to use due to the "cockpit" readout.

ic-racer · Feb 1, 2018

DREW WILEY said:
I consider the Pentax digital spotmeter the best ever. New ones still turn up once in awhile. But I bagged a mint virtually unused one for $200 a couple years ago. The first thing I did was remove the idiotic ala Fred Picker Zone label that the previous owner stuck on it.

Yes those are nice, maybe the pinnacle of B&W film metering. The Pentax Digital is smaller and lighter than my Sekonic.

I processed my first batch of ten 4x5 negatives exposed with my Sekonic and they all look good.
Now that I have some time to use the Sekonic I really like the fact it shows the metered zone in the viewfinder ( or Zone minus five, so, I=4, II=3, III=2, IV=1 etc.) along with the proposed camera settings.

I shoot 8mm Cine, so the incident function of the Sekonic will be nice but I have yet to use it.

ic-racer · Feb 1, 2018

DREW WILEY said:
The AA Zone System is a useful set of training wheels before you get full confidence. But God didn't create the world in just eight zones, and even Kodak didn't create film that way. ....

Exactly. I used to teach a sensitometry class and tried to de-emphasize the 'black box' characteristics of the "zone system."

ic-racer · Feb 1, 2018

Some persons have questioned setting exposure based on the low values. Without going into extensive detail, I'll just quote from The Brightness Scale of Exterior Scenes and the Computation of Correct Photographic Exposure*

We have already expressed our conviction that of the various possible brightness characteristics of the scene which may be measured or estimated, the minimum brightness, B-min., is the most fundamentally rational and significant criterion of correct exposure.-- Jones and Condit 1941

DREW WILEY · Feb 1, 2018

What I do is almost subconsciously or intuitively (based on experience) visualize the shape at the bottom of the curve and where I want the shadow readings placed. I also typically make a mid-tone reading, then a highlight. It's easy to do with a spotmeter. Or I might do none of the above and work from memory - having done thousands of analogous readings.

david schaller · Feb 1, 2018

I use the digital Pentax. I meter for the shadow to place on Zone III, then I close down two stops for the exposure. Then I meter for the highlight to determine the development, usually N- something. I write it all down for each sheet. Usually the same for roll films, except that I'm a bit less precise, and figure N-1 for most things. But the shadow is almost always in Zone III. With reciprocity adjustments, I meter for Zone III, then figure the reciprocity adjustment, then divide by 4 to place it correctly in Zone IIII.

DREW WILEY · Feb 4, 2018

Standardizing on Z III might make sense in an S-curve film like Pan F, but most films will separate tones down to Z II, T-Max films down to Z I, and Foma 200 down to zero. No wonder you need to minus develop - you're probably wasting a lot of valuable real estate on the curve by over-exposing the film.

ic-racer · Feb 4, 2018

For a typical complex subject matter I prefer, the 1 degree spot still is an average of low values. I'd have to walk up to some bark or under a leaf, to get any uniform low zone entirely within the meter area in most cases of the scenes I seek. So, if I set exposure based on, say III, it is because I'm going to say the values averaged within the metered spot are III. Nice thing is, irrespective of the chosen metered zone, the camera settings are displayed.

Doremus Scudder · Feb 5, 2018

Zone Wheel: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/misc/zswheel.pdf Works with any meter

There's also one in Ralph Lambrecht's "Way Beyond Monochrome."

ic-racer · Feb 5, 2018

Nice thing about this Sekonic is that it has that functionality of that wheel is included in the meter. You just need to subtract 5 from the zone.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...port-zone-metering.156880/page-4#post-2037553

benjiboy · Feb 12, 2018

The original statement is incorrect, the Gossen Starlite 2 has both 1degree and five-degree spot metering and a Zone System facility..http://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters/gossen_starlite/gossen_starlite.htm
Look at section 5.7 on page 21

Huub · Feb 13, 2018

benjiboy said:
The original statement is incorrect, the Gossen Starlite 2 has both 1degree and five-degree spot metering and a Zone System facility..http://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters/gossen_starlite/gossen_starlite.htm
Look at section 5.7 on page 21

This also applies for the Gossen Spotmaster and Spotmaster 2 of course. Both have full zone system functionality. With those 1-degree meters you can meter the shadows, place it wherever you think it should be between zone I and zone IV. After you have metered for the high lights you adjust the meter for the development you want to use and dial in for instance N-2 or N+1 or N+2,5, by half steps. The meter then adjusts the placement of the high light measurement and calculates the right exposure for the chosen development, even adjusting the film speed automatically. Of course, everything is nicely displayed in the very good view finder.

ic-racer · Feb 13, 2018

benjiboy said:
The original statement is incorrect, the Gossen Starlite 2 has both 1degree and five-degree spot metering and a Zone System facility..http://www.butkus.org/chinon/flashes_meters/gossen_starlite/gossen_starlite.htm
Look at section 5.7 on page 21

Fantastic! I missed that! I got the Sekonic to work for me, but if it ever fails me...I know where to look for a replacement.

zos3000 · Jun 11, 2021

https://www.alexbond.com.au/sekonic-l758d-and-the-zone-system/

its an old thread. Maybe this link is helpful…

ic-racer · Jun 12, 2021

zos3000 said:
https://www.alexbond.com.au/sekonic-l758d-and-the-zone-system/

its an old thread. Maybe this link is helpful…

Thanks for positing because that 758 has a little different display than the 558 I'm using:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...port-zone-metering.156880/page-4#post-2037485

David Lindquist · Jun 13, 2021

zos3000 said:
https://www.alexbond.com.au/sekonic-l758d-and-the-zone-system/

its an old thread. Maybe this link is helpful…

Thank you for this. I need to study this and see if it helps with my seemingly zone proof L-858.

David

Bill Burk · Jun 13, 2021

Here's my Zone Sticker... maybe it would work on the 858 as well as the 758... it's merely a mnemonic to tell you which f/stop to pick to place a single reading on a Zone. Once you see how it works you can't un-see it. No difficult instructions required.

ic-racer · Jun 13, 2021

Rmaydana · Jun 17, 2021

Theo Sulphate said:
My Zone VI Industries Pentax Digital spotmeter has a Zone System scale affixed (glued) next to the existing scales. Crude, but it works.
It has a scale and it is not 1°, and on the other hand it does not match the scale of a Pentax,
for the same EV, both give a different combination of time and aperture.
and I have no idea why...

My Luna Pro does have a Zone scale, but alas, doesn't have 1-degree metering.

View attachment 193696

Rmaydana · Jun 17, 2021

Mick Fagan said:
It also takes the Profi-Spot attachment, which will give you 10º - 5º - 1º metering capability and built in dioptre correction. Mine works a treat.
did you compare for one EV measured with a 1° pentax, what combinations does the Pentax show with the luna?
I did the comparison for IE 100 and the Grossen, it has one stop difference.

Going very slightly off topic, combine the Profi-Spot attachment and the Profi-Flex attachment, I have the possibility to have various narrow metering capabilities, as well as off the ground glass for what is effectively TTL metering on my view cameras.

The 7.5º and 15º attachment is not bad, but compared to the 10º - 5º - 1º attachment, not in the same league. I have both of these attachments, both have their plusses and minuses.

Mick.

View attachment 193720

Sirius Glass · Jun 17, 2021

Theo Sulphate said: ↑
My Zone VI Industries Pentax Digital spotmeter has a Zone System scale affixed (glued) next to the existing scales. Crude, but it works.
It has a scale and it is not 1°, and on the other hand it does not match the scale of a Pentax,
for the same EV, both give a different combination of time and aperture.
and I have no idea why...

My Luna Pro does have a Zone scale, but alas, doesn't have 1-degree metering.

I passed on getting yet another attachment and bought a dedicated 1° spot meter the Pentax Digital.

Bill Burk · Jun 18, 2021

Old-N-Feeble said:
I've never understood the need for a Zone Scale. One f-stop above the zeroed meter is Zone VI. Two f-stops below the zeroed meter is Zone III.

I am helpless and cannot remember up or down without a sticker. I was paralyzed the day I carried my Weston Master II in my shirt pocket, it got damp (from normal sweat) and the scale fell off.

RalphLambrecht · Jun 18, 2021

ic-racer said:
I'm in the market for a new meter. I have quite a few but nothing newer than 1980s. My most commonly used meter is a Sekonic L-206 10-degree "View Meter" which was designed in 1966 and my example is from 1975. It still works fine but my wife offered to buy me a new meter of my choice for Christmas. BTW I like the 206, it is a conventional reflected light meter but it has a narrow view (10 degrees) and you get to see the metered area. I actually works very very well, because you can choose to omit highlights or non-uniform areas of the scene and get very good average readings. For B&W almost always a single reading is just right.

Back to my meter hunt:

I find it mind boggling that Sekonic has been making some of the finest 1-degree spot meters since the 1980s (and even the newest model that just was released, the L-858 @ $600 USD) provide no easy way to "Zone Meter."

Like... what??? What did they think you were going to do with the spot meter?? Average a bunch of numbers into the same reading you would get had they given you a 10 degree view meter (like my old 206??).

Anyway, I have a L-558 on the way and the reason I got it, even though it has no 'Zone Meter' capacity is that there is a workaround that I'm going to use.

It is simply the mater of re-naming the zones and using the meters jog wheel to set "Filter Factors" that will be surrogates for the metered zones.

My new zones as follows

Zone 0 becomes Zone +5
Zone 1 becomes Zone +4
Zone 2 becomes Zone +3 (onset of texture)
Zone 3 becomes Zone +2
Zone 4 becomes Zone +1
Zone 5 becomes Zone 0 (middle gray)
Zone 6 becomes Zone -1 (skin)
Zone 7 becomes Zone -2
Zone 8 becomes Zone -3 (highlight)

the bestZonemeter lways wasand still is thePentax digital spotmeter!

Bill Burk · Jun 18, 2021

ic-racer said:
For a typical complex subject matter I prefer, the 1 degree spot still is an average of low values. I'd have to walk up to some bark or under a leaf, to get any uniform low zone entirely within the meter area in most cases of the scenes I seek. So, if I set exposure based on, say III, it is because I'm going to say the values averaged within the metered spot are III. Nice thing is, irrespective of the chosen metered zone, the camera settings are displayed.
View attachment 194897 View attachment 194898
View attachment 194896

If you walk up you eliminate flare, and the original Zone System required you to walk up. I often think this accounted for the shift from Minor White Zone II (Weston Master) to Ansel Adams Zone III (Pentax Spotmeter)

ic-racer · Jun 18, 2021

Bill Burk said:
If you walk up you eliminate flare, and the original Zone System required you to walk up. I often think this accounted for the shift from Minor White Zone II (Weston Master) to Ansel Adams Zone III (Pentax Spotmeter)

Yes, and I recently watched a YouTube video of Fred Picker doing spot readings walking up to the subject.

Reason I don't do that is because of flare. That is, if you put a can, painted black inside, in your scene and measure it with your spot meter up close, the density on film will be flare density, not your measured density. Of course there already has been a mega-thread on flare...

Top Of The Line 1-Degree Meters Don't Support "Zone" Metering??

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