I upgraded my Leudi I to a Leudi II because the rotating scale came apart. Now the Leudi II has a hard-to-rotate scale. So I'd like to get a meter that will display the camera settings for film exposure with an electronic display.
Top Of The Line 1-Degree Meters Don't Support "Zone" Metering??
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I determine where I want the shadow part of the scene to have detail and underexpose two steps. Then I take a reading in the area where I want lightest highlight detail and develop for that. I might offset development depending on whether I think I can burn highlights easily enough without the manipulation being obvious because I like lots of mid-tone acutance. I might place shadows at Z4 to accentuate shadow detail provided the film's range can handle it.
Meter function? I set the ISO to whatever I deem appropriate for the film and my processing techniques. I read the meter and calculate from those readings. I never mess with complicated unnecessary in-meter stuff.
Most of the time I use the matrix metering on my 35mm cameras or the Hasselblad PME light reading. For other situations I use the Sekonic L308s or Gossen Luna Pro SBC for reflectance or incident readings.
For Zone or Zone like measurements, I choose an area that I want in Zone x, I set the Gossen Luna Pro SBC Zone System ring to Zone x. I take a light reading, turn the dial until the center led lights. Then I choose the f/stop and shutter speed. No endless, redundant, repetitive, useless testing. I have a life to live and I do not do Zone testing.
I got the meter today and, as I expected, you cannot really figure out exactly how the buttons alter the display from the verbal descriptions in the manual.
With the meter in my hand I was able to figure out how it can show the proper spot reflected-light reading to expose B&W negative film for large format photography.
First I put it into some mode where I can see the analog aperture scale at the bottom. That is what I will use to read the camera settings. (With Time on the bottom, in LF photography, the correct time could scroll off the scale (below 4 sec) and you won't be able to read the correct exposure with this method)
In the reflected spot mode, find the darkest areas of the scene with the viewfinder circle. Since our eye can be fooled, I choose a number potential candidate values and record them to memory. For fun you can also spot and save some high values too.
Each value shows as a dot on the aperture scale at the bottom.
The correct film exposure for the scene will be BASED on the DOT FARTHEST TO THE LEFT on the analog aperture scale at the bottom. However, you still cannot read the exposure because the meter thought that dot represented a middle gray value. You have to tell the meter you want that dot to represent the shadow.
For me I like using the EXPOSURE COMP because it clearly shows the zone you will be basing exposure on. After testing the meter it seems the spot is still too big to really get a very low value. My testing shows that for a typical outdoor scene (rocks, water, trees, etc) that I favor, an EV value of +3.0 tells the meter the dot farthest to the left is the correct exposure. It can be called Zone II or just +3.0 COMP. The good thing about using EXPOSURE COMP is that it shows in both the viewfinder and the main screen in pretty big numbers. So you won't forget you are spot metering based on the lowest value. You need to set it back to 0 for incident.
Just to review.
1) Calibrate you meter ISO setting and EXPOSURE COMP so that the lowest values of you typical scenes JUST have density in the negatives based on the lowest spot reading in the scene. You can set it any way you want. That is, you can set box speed and the appropriate EXPOSURE COMP, or an EXPOSURE COM of zero and a special exposure index ISO. There will be a thousand different ways to do this. Check your work, repeat the test if needed and don't make a mistake.
2) To Use the meter: Spot and save a bunch of low values from your scene. Each reading will show as a dot on the analog aperture scale at the bottom.
3) Set the camera shutter based on the shutter speed indicated on the digital display.
4) Set the aperture on the camera to the aperture indicated by the dot most to the LEFT of the group of dots. That is your lowest scene value, weather you eye detected that as lowest or not. The dots on the right are highlights if you saved any. Their distance from the left-most dot is the SBR if you need to record that.
You can use the filter factor function, instead of EXPOSURE COMP, like I thought in post #1, but you need to keep your finger on the button. I did not like that. Also, if the JOG wheel is tied up setting the fiter factor, you can't move your exposure value dots right or left on the analog aperture while in the ISO 2 mode.
With the meter in my hand I was able to figure out how it can show the proper spot reflected-light reading to expose B&W negative film for large format photography.
First I put it into some mode where I can see the analog aperture scale at the bottom. That is what I will use to read the camera settings. (With Time on the bottom, in LF photography, the correct time could scroll off the scale (below 4 sec) and you won't be able to read the correct exposure with this method)
In the reflected spot mode, find the darkest areas of the scene with the viewfinder circle. Since our eye can be fooled, I choose a number potential candidate values and record them to memory. For fun you can also spot and save some high values too.
Each value shows as a dot on the aperture scale at the bottom.
The correct film exposure for the scene will be BASED on the DOT FARTHEST TO THE LEFT on the analog aperture scale at the bottom. However, you still cannot read the exposure because the meter thought that dot represented a middle gray value. You have to tell the meter you want that dot to represent the shadow.
For me I like using the EXPOSURE COMP because it clearly shows the zone you will be basing exposure on. After testing the meter it seems the spot is still too big to really get a very low value. My testing shows that for a typical outdoor scene (rocks, water, trees, etc) that I favor, an EV value of +3.0 tells the meter the dot farthest to the left is the correct exposure. It can be called Zone II or just +3.0 COMP. The good thing about using EXPOSURE COMP is that it shows in both the viewfinder and the main screen in pretty big numbers. So you won't forget you are spot metering based on the lowest value. You need to set it back to 0 for incident.
Just to review.
1) Calibrate you meter ISO setting and EXPOSURE COMP so that the lowest values of you typical scenes JUST have density in the negatives based on the lowest spot reading in the scene. You can set it any way you want. That is, you can set box speed and the appropriate EXPOSURE COMP, or an EXPOSURE COM of zero and a special exposure index ISO. There will be a thousand different ways to do this. Check your work, repeat the test if needed and don't make a mistake.
2) To Use the meter: Spot and save a bunch of low values from your scene. Each reading will show as a dot on the analog aperture scale at the bottom.
3) Set the camera shutter based on the shutter speed indicated on the digital display.
4) Set the aperture on the camera to the aperture indicated by the dot most to the LEFT of the group of dots. That is your lowest scene value, weather you eye detected that as lowest or not. The dots on the right are highlights if you saved any. Their distance from the left-most dot is the SBR if you need to record that.
You can use the filter factor function, instead of EXPOSURE COMP, like I thought in post #1, but you need to keep your finger on the button. I did not like that. Also, if the JOG wheel is tied up setting the fiter factor, you can't move your exposure value dots right or left on the analog aperture while in the ISO 2 mode.
AA experts correct me. My understanding is at some time he used older Weston meters that had indicators on the dial that would represent limits of texture. Essentially zone II and IX.
He defined the textural range as Zone II to Zone VIII in The Negative (density range of 1.05). The Weston scale you show is in units of candles per sq. ft. and is the basis for his Exposure Formula. I've never paid any attention to the "U" and "O" symbols on the Weston meters, which relate to Zone I and Zone VIII, respectively. AA used an SEI photometer to measure luminances in candles per sq. ft., then placed those values on the desired zones mentally. Doing those mathematical gymnastics hurts my hair and is error-prone when done hastily, so I prefer a zone scale on a meter. I can't recall EVER using my Lunasix to measure an incident reading, and I'm always mindful to do as AA recommended in a workshop to "condition any CdS meter" before attempting to get a reading in low light due to the tendency to drift considerably before settling down. Conditioning is done by aiming the meter at a bright source like a sunlit cloud and turn it on for about 15-20 seconds, after which it will yield drift-free low light reading.
Totally agree. This is exactly what I've done. I have no use for digital meters exhibiting a screen that resembles the cockpit of a 747.
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Seems needlessly complicated to me, but if it works for you, that's all that counts.
I never needed, wanted, desired or used the floss of the Zone System with a top of the line Sekonic L758D.
THe L758D does not need and the user will not benefit from, ZS referencing. The meter is a lot smarter than that when used in skilled, experienced hands.
Actually, without the meter in-hand, it seemed impossible. But if you can demonstrate a better way, please do. In my system you take a shadow reading and the meter displays the camera settings. No guessing or calculations.
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Please explain. I have the manual. I don't use the Zone system either. I base exposure on ASA/ISO standard technique.
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Yes, but the meter I have, L-558, does not have that function. That sticker applied to the front of my meter would need to slide back and forth, and would need to be the other way around. Low zones to the left.
I did look back at the manual for your meter but still don't see how that zone label works without sliding if you are in the "Exposure Profile" mode (maybe you are not using that mode?).
In the Exposure Profile mode, your shadow light reading is placed at "0" in the middle of the scale by the meter software. I can't see how to defeat that. How do you shift it over to lie over the Zone II sticker? Or do you put the sticker on the meter so that the Zone II is in the center of the display (the meters "0")?
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It's just a mnemonic for which direction the different zones are at on the scale, you don't actually slide it around. It's only good for single point readings. I think the zones get "reversed" when you read a number of points to memory. Anyway my meter puts those four points on the graph, yours doesn't seem to have that mode so you get only one reference (Zone V).
This has been a 'fun' thread to read through! I'm not meaning to be negative about any of the posts, it has been genuinely interesting to see how everyone uses their meters. For my own part, I am slightly disappointed that the top-of-the-line sekonic can't seem to do what we want it to do. I wonder if the meter cannot do what is required or am I misinterpreting what ic is wanting the meter to do.
Anyway, to add another opinion... I use the kenko (forget what number it is... 2100???), an ex-minolta design. This can do shadow or highlight values based on the reflected spot reading chosen and (drum-roll...) will display ones chosen latitude range around the resulting reading. Ta Da! Hasn't got a backlit screen though.
I think the pentax meter is far simpler and from what I hear does the job admirably.
Hope ic finds a way to meter to their satisfaction.
Anyway, to add another opinion... I use the kenko (forget what number it is... 2100???), an ex-minolta design. This can do shadow or highlight values based on the reflected spot reading chosen and (drum-roll...) will display ones chosen latitude range around the resulting reading. Ta Da! Hasn't got a backlit screen though.
I think the pentax meter is far simpler and from what I hear does the job admirably.Hope ic finds a way to meter to their satisfaction.
Once calibrated, it is accurate and easy to use. No needless complexity. KISS. YMMV.
Now that I have had a few days to use the Sekonic L-558, I can give a review.
1) It seem smaller than I imagined. This is due to its light weight. This is a positive.
2) I'm used to a lot of equipment doing something when a button is pressed. But the Sekonic freezes the value when you RELEASE the button. I need to get in the habit of releasing the button carefully, otherwise the metering circle jerks away from the target. It is also a little odd to use the thumb rather than index finger to take the reading (I see you can swap the button function on the newer meters to address this).
3) Oddball Exposure Compensation value sign convention. A more POSITIVE value of this number causes the meter to display camera settings that would give LESS exposure to the film. The meters of most cameras with which I am familiar give MORE exposure to the film when the Exposure Compensation is (+).
Maybe Sekonic wanted the Exposure Compensation to match the FILTER FACTOR function behavior. In the FILTER FACTOR function the number represents a filter factor where a POSITIVE filter factor does give LESS exposure to the film.
1) It seem smaller than I imagined. This is due to its light weight. This is a positive.
2) I'm used to a lot of equipment doing something when a button is pressed. But the Sekonic freezes the value when you RELEASE the button. I need to get in the habit of releasing the button carefully, otherwise the metering circle jerks away from the target. It is also a little odd to use the thumb rather than index finger to take the reading (I see you can swap the button function on the newer meters to address this).
3) Oddball Exposure Compensation value sign convention. A more POSITIVE value of this number causes the meter to display camera settings that would give LESS exposure to the film. The meters of most cameras with which I am familiar give MORE exposure to the film when the Exposure Compensation is (+).
Maybe Sekonic wanted the Exposure Compensation to match the FILTER FACTOR function behavior. In the FILTER FACTOR function the number represents a filter factor where a POSITIVE filter factor does give LESS exposure to the film.
What are you doing!?
Baseline calibration of the meter, shifting its value away from a calibrated mid-line either up or down [+/-0.0] (ISO1 + ISO2) is not the same as filter factor (ISO2 [+/- 0.0], applied after metering, and is a known and precise value (not a guess) of whatever filter you are using e.g. for a C-POL, typically between +1.5 and +2.0, but smaller increments are often a better ideal based on experience).
Are you basing your ZS assumptions on baseline calibration of the L558 or by filter factor (which would be invoked by pressing ISO2 after averaging the meter)?
You may be new to the Sekonic way of doing things, but the way these meters behave and their customisations and degree of accuracy is based on a lot of feedback over a long period of time from many, many professional users; that includes the metering standard being 12.6% incident and 16.2% reflected spot (two separate, unrelated metering systems) and either auto or manual switching of the metering buttons (among many other things, including how readings are averaged that can have a bearing on the outcome in critical situations).
Ta-da! 'To mimic...' might be another description. But remember that exposure compensation (or, shifting the mid-tone or averaged whole reading left or right to 'fit') and/versus filter factor are two different functions that affect the meter independently. Read the instructions that came with the meter.
Baseline calibration of the meter, shifting its value away from a calibrated mid-line either up or down [+/-0.0] (ISO1 + ISO2) is not the same as filter factor (ISO2 [+/- 0.0], applied after metering, and is a known and precise value (not a guess) of whatever filter you are using e.g. for a C-POL, typically between +1.5 and +2.0, but smaller increments are often a better ideal based on experience).
Are you basing your ZS assumptions on baseline calibration of the L558 or by filter factor (which would be invoked by pressing ISO2 after averaging the meter)?
You may be new to the Sekonic way of doing things, but the way these meters behave and their customisations and degree of accuracy is based on a lot of feedback over a long period of time from many, many professional users; that includes the metering standard being 12.6% incident and 16.2% reflected spot (two separate, unrelated metering systems) and either auto or manual switching of the metering buttons (among many other things, including how readings are averaged that can have a bearing on the outcome in critical situations).
Ta-da! 'To mimic...' might be another description. But remember that exposure compensation (or, shifting the mid-tone or averaged whole reading left or right to 'fit') and/versus filter factor are two different functions that affect the meter independently. Read the instructions that came with the meter.
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You mean he has to RTFM! Heavens to Betsy! [Whoever the heck she is]
Bettsy... Who was he anyway??
Works fine; see post #92 and #93. Thread was started before I had the meter in my hand and figured it out.
Calibration value for the meter is not changed. The system (camera, film meter, enlarger type, etc.) needs to be 'calibrated' to one's working style, as any meter or camera. That is the use of 'calibration' in my text.
Calibration value for the meter is not changed. Averaging function not used (ignore the "A" in the diagrams). ISO2 not used (original post was before I had the meter).
Sekonic user since 1975. Incident metering not mentioned in this thread. Not using gray card.
Exposure compensation and filter factor alter the indicated camera settings in exactly the same way on my meter.
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I consider the Pentax digital spotmeter the best ever. New ones still turn up once in awhile. But I bagged a mint virtually unused one for $200 a couple years ago. The first thing I did was remove the idiotic ala Fred Picker Zone label that the previous owner stuck on it.
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