Top Of The Line 1-Degree Meters Don't Support "Zone" Metering??

Bill Burk

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Oh yes, exposure profiling... I consider Zone System tests to be "exposure profiling" and apply the whole stop clipping points because that is what the Zone System would be "by definition"
 

faberryman

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I think digital readout meters are harder to use and give a false sense of precision. I uses a Pentax spotmeter. It has a digital EV readout which you transfer to an analog scale. You can attach a sticker if you want.
 
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ic-racer

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The more I read about the "Exposure Profiling" I want it, however, I'm still not convinced I can do it with film and the new 858. From the L-858 manual. In fact the word "FILM" is not contained in the 204 page L858 manual.

1. What is a Exposure Profle?
1) It can be used to display on a light meter the unique dynamic range and clipping point of the digital camera you are using.
‹Transfers the unique sensor characteristics of the digital camera to the light meter.
 
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ic-racer

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This is from the L 858 manual. Looks like just what I wanted. A Zone indicator (red/green band indicator). But, I still can't tell from the manual if I can input my own film H&D curve values or if the software only accepts digital sensor 8bit output to create the curve. If it only accepts Y-axis values to 256, it won't be hard to scale any of my H&D curves to fit that. I just need to figure out if the Sekonic software lets me enter my own values. The meter itself, apparently, does not let one enter the values to make the curve.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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If you fix the shutter speed on the meter, these are the values it shows. You can 'dumb down' the digital display and have it round to the nearest full-f-stop.

Of course the meter won't do that. You keep track of it in your head.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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Yes, and good luck keeping mechanical shutter speeds consistent at temperatures from 0 to 100 degrees F.
 
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ic-racer

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The L858 will accept H&D film curve values and display and correlate a high, middle and low zone as you spot meter. . According to the manual, you can enter them right into the meter, without the "profiling software." Assuming one already had the H&D curves.
 
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CMoore

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Sorry, I intended no disrespect. I guess I always found converting f-stops to zones second nature. But I took up analog photography at age 13 and became completely absorbed by it.
I only practice "The Zone System" in the most remedial of ways, but.....Yeah.
So, again, i am probably not qualified to discuss how or how not a meter should work.
But, do they not all meter to Zone 5.?
I thought that was, one of, the flexibilitys of The Zone System. You can meter the sky and make that Zone 5 if you want to.
Or you meter the Darkest detail that is important (to you) then meter the Lightest detail, and count the stops if THAT is important.?
I suppose we all have our crutches that we start to lean on.
Personally, i have an addiction for those Rubber Eye Cups on 35mm cameras. I know a lot of people Hate/Do Not like them.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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To be honest, I was never ultra-accurate with the ZS either but I used it to get very close.
 

Bill Burk

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Page 154. Choose -4, -3, +3, +4.
That’s Zone System (by definition) no profiling needed.

Or you can get the target gray card and shoot it in one-stop brackets from -5 to +5 stops, print and then take densitometer readings of each patch... to really profile the meter.
 
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Good God! If a new meter is so difficult to deal with, just get the old standby. Just buy a good used Pentax digital spot meter, download the readily available Zone sticker and get to work. I have three...

Doremus
 
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ic-racer

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I was almost going to get a new 858 last night but can't figure out how you can get the exposure from the H&D curve data. That is, it looks to me like you have to base your exposure on Zone V. How do you place a scene value on the low zone clip point and have it give you the exposure? I don't see that the meter can do this.
After reading the 585 manual over I did appear that indeed the exposure profile is ONLY FOR DIGITAL, as there is no way to have it properly expose negative film based on a shadow density. Is that correct?
 
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not sue but many of his students advocated them. AA probably didn't need one; he thought in Zones.
Being dyslexic, I do understand the value of visual aids. We all process information differently. I use a Sekonic L-508 and it's way easier with your zone scale. Thanks Ralph for such a wonderful tool!
 

faberryman

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The answer is none of the above. The correct answer is (approximately) f3.2, adjusted by how much your shutter is off at the selected speed. Of course, that f-stop is not marked on any lens, so you are going to have to guess. If you are shooting LF, you are most likely going to have to transpose your shutter speed/aperture selection (and recalculate your actual shutter speed adjustment) because your lens is probably not fast enough to accommodate a f3.2 aperture. Then there is the film reciprocity factor to consider, which even with a calculator is an approximation.

If you want to expose to 1/3 stop accuracy (much less the 1/12 stop accuracy called for in your example), you will need to 1) have each of your lenses' aperture scales marked at 1/3 stop increments, and 2) have each of your shutters tested for accuracy, and carry around a chart showing their actual as opposed to marked shutter speeds. Shutter speeds, especially the faster ones, are often off by at least 1/3 stop. It's one more adjustment, just like bellows extension factor, filter factor, etc. And I am assuming you have already done your film/developer test to determine your personal exposure index and are not just setting the ISO on your meter willy-nilly to box speed.

Or you could lower your expectations, secure in the knowledge being off 1/3 stop over or under is not going to make the least bit of difference to anyone living in the real world. I am not arguing you should be sloppy, just aware of the actual level of precision required.
 
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jerrybro

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I also use the Profi-Spot and 7/15 adapters on a couple of SBCs. The spot attachment works very well, find the dark shadow and meter, adjust the dial to -3, set the exposure, find the highlight and how far it is from +3 determines development. Only downside is the size of the assembly. I'm sure internal baffling could be improved, but I have not seen it as an issue with my photography.
The SBC is really a versatile meter, alone and with the attachments.
 

Sirius Glass

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I agree when being within half an f/stop is good enough.
 
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ic-racer

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THREAD RE-DIRECTION:
I know nobody reads the whole thread, but to review, my L-206 works fine and I have had it since about 1975 and, although I have a small collection of old meters, the L-206 is my favorite.

My wife offered to get me a new meter for Christmas. I naively expected a name-brand meter manufacturer to make contemporary computer-controlled meter for film photography and I'm ranting about lack of film photography support.

Chime in if you like or dislike the CURRENT PRODUCTION COMPUTERIZED exposure meters. If you like them, I'd like to know what meter you use and how you use it to expose B&W negative film.

I ordered a New-in-Box Sekonic L-558 and I'm going to use the meter's 'filter-factor' Jog Wheel to base my film exposure on the low scene values.

Basing B&W negative film exposure on low values is called "Zone Metering" in my nomenclature and has been confused here with "THE ZONE SYSTEM." Basing B&W negative film exposure on low values is the ASA and ISO standard of film speed determination. Sorry for the confusion and mentioning the word "Zone."

Sekonic L-206


Seconic L-558
 
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faberryman

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I naively expected a name-brand meter manufacturer to make contemporary computer-controlled meter for film photography and I'm ranting about lack of film photography support.
A light meter measures light, irrespective of the type of camera you are using. What you do with those measurements is up to you. I use my meters for both film and digital photography, and they work equally well for both.
 

Old-N-Feeble

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I have a Sekonic L-778. I don't want or need its ability to be programmed for a film curve nor do I want or need a Zone System dial (display). A very simple spot meter will do. I also have a Gossen Luna Pro SBC with the 7/15 degree attachment and the 1/5/10 degree attachment and the fiber optic probe for taking measurements off the GG.

Honestly, any simple accurate 1 degree meter would suit me nicely. One simply must be cognizant of a certain film's characteristic curve and spectral sensitivity. Same with the meter regarding the latter.

I know enough to know I ain't smart enough to get an exposure 'perfect' every time due to so many variables. So I take my best 'educated guess', given the available data, and bracket one way or the other to hedge against my errors.

I also make duplicate exposures and process one at a time to assure I have development time correct and develop the second exposure after adjusting to compensate for (again) my miscalculations.

This may seem like quite a waste but I take very few photos and am very picky about what I'm willing to spend funds for. I know quite well the final image will be worth the costs and time, or I never take the shot.
 
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ic-racer

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A light meter measures light, irrespective of the type of camera you are using. What you do with those measurements is up to you. I use my meters for both film and digital photography, and they work equally well for both.
I'm looking for an exposure meter for film photography that indicates camera settings. Not a light meter, although some of them are very high spec. and very expensive.
 
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Craig75

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It sounds to me like its going to be easier to program the iso2 button as auto shadow button.

Then brightness difference function and let meter calculate how many stops are in your scene.
 

faberryman

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I'm looking for an exposure meter for film photography that indicates camera settings. Not a light meter, although some of them are very high spec. and very expensive.
I have three meters. They all measure light. I use them to determine exposure. To make that determination, I evaluate the light measurements and make judgments. In other words, I think. I am not unique. And it is not nearly as complicated as you are trying to make it.
 
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ic-racer

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I have a Sekonic L-778. I don't want or need its ability to be programmed for a film curve nor do I want or need a Zone System dial (display). A very simple spot meter will do.
I have read the manual on L-778, it has many similarities to the L-558 I'm getting.
To be specific, what do you do when you point the spot at an area of your scene that is not middle gray? What meter function do you use to get the meter to display the camera settings for the scene, or do you obtain the camera settings outside of the meter's function package?
 
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