The ultimate film washing method

[Sirius Glass]

If the water plus Photoflo mixture is more concentrated than the minimum needed to produce foam then there is a potential for streaks.
If the water plus Photoflo mixture dries and stops flowing down the film before all visible traces of it have dripped off the end there is potential for streaks.
Apparently no one but me does this but it seems to work:
Hang the film, as wet as possible, edge on at a 45 degree angle. Now the water plus Photoflo mixture only has to get across the width of the film not down its entire length before it dries.
And if a drying mark should appear it is on the edge of the film and not in the picture area.

Similar to my putting a paper towel on the lowest corner of the film to draw off water. And it can draw off the excess quickly. Try it, you may like it.

 

[radiant]

Conclusion is probably that with filtered water + photoflo there shouldn't be any problems. Strange; that is exactly what I do. There is always some marks on the non-emulsion side no matter what I do.

Here is current statistics of my tap water, is there something suspicious on these?

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I cannot give an ultimate way to wash films, but I can tell you what I do to avoid stains.
I use Reverse Osmosis water (with residual solids of 12-14ppm) for the final rinse/dip (10-15min) with as little "photoflo" (I use the Fujifilm variant) as possible in the tank - probably no more than a drop for a tank of 4 35mm rolls.
just a drop of photoflow in the final wash followed by a short rinse in distilled water. It won't get any better than that!
Shake the spirals well and hang the film in a medium humidity low dust environment (our bathroom) with no further touching.
There will be an occasional streak on the back side but never something that couldn't be removed gently with a lens cleaning cloth if it shows up on a print or a scan - I don't sweat over things I don't see in the final result.
I have also used this method with distilled water and it works the same. For a periode of time I used only a carbonfilter when I lived in a soft water area of Japan - I don't recall that I had particular problems during that period.

For the actual film washing process, I have recently started using ILFORD's recommended way for reducing water waste. (except I use only one drop of wetting agent and RO water as mentioned above). I have not noticed any changes regarding stains on my dried film following that.

If I were you, I would probably first try with Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water in place of DI water to see if that makes a difference, and only as little "photoflo" as possible just to remove the water surface tension. I personally wouldn't mess with additional chemicals.

 

[grain elevator]

I've read frequently that people need to use less photoflo than the instructions say to avoid streaks. Curious that has only been mentioned once here.
I use the analogous Tetenal product at recommend dilution, but it only works with demineralised water for me (washing is with somewhat hard tap water).

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I use the analogous Tetenal product at recommend dilution, but it only works with demineralised water for me (washing is with somewhat hard tap water).

Like you I use the Tetenal product at the recommended in distilled water and have found this approach works well. Washing is with hard tap water, as is stop bath and fixer, although I do mix developer in distilled water.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Conclusion is probably that with filtered water + photoflo there shouldn't be any problems. Strange; that is exactly what I do. There is always some marks on the non-emulsion side no matter what I do.

Here is current statistics of my tap water, is there something suspicious on these?

View attachment 294812

shouldn't the Ph be closer to 7.0?

 

[relistan]

I miss when I lived in Oregon and I used tap water, did nothing special, and got spot free negatives.

 

[brian steinberger]

I went through all this years ago when I moved into my current home. Very hard tap water. Was getting streaks. I tried literally everything and in my situation here is what worked for me

8 min wash in running water. Hard water actually is a good thing for washing film/paper.

Fill the tank with distilled water, agitate 20 times let sit for 1 minute and dump. Repeat.

Into photo flo mixed with distilled water. For me it’s 5 drops for 450ml water. I let it sit 30 sec or so.

Take film off reel then see saw the film back though the photo flo once and immediately hang up.

NO squeegee or fingers.

Heres the key that was an eye opener for me. Hang the film on a diagonal, as Maris mentions above. Roger Hicks also used this method and it was a last ditch effort for me to get rid of the marks, and it worked! Instead of the water all accumulating in the bottom frame as the film dries it gradually works it way along the bottom edge of the film.

Hope this helps.

 

[tezzasmall]

I used to buy distilled water for cars and irons and use it only for the last rinse with the smallest amount of photo-flo that I could put in, which gave me really clean negatives, MOST of the time. Any deposits were on the shiny side of the film, so easily wiped off.

This was until (and I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner) I read about and started to use the water filtered in my Brita drinking water filter jug. Saves the small amount to pay on the distilled water and has given me clean negs.

If I notice a lot of water on the negs when hung up, I dip my hand in the last rinse and run the film between my thumb and finger gently.

Terry S

 

[Craig75]

I use half recommended amount of photoflo and just let it sit in the tank for 5 mins.

The 4ml.or whatever it is of photoflo left streaks on negatives.

And I found I had to leave it soaking in tank longer too

I use distilled water for photoflo.

The Russian roulette of photoflo and water.

 

[VinceInMT]

Before investing in a way to measure the quality of your tap water, check with your water provider. Ours, a municipal service, has monthly breakdowns of dissolved solids and other data on their web site.

Me, I use distilled water with a little photflo and hang to dry in my darkroom and close the door. The only time I’ve had a problem is too much photoflo.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

Uh... There's already a sticky thread on this with lots of great information: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/washing-film-best-environmentally-friendly-way-to-do-it.43248/

Lots of the practices described here are questionable IM-HO.

If you really want well-washed film, do the tests: ST-1 or KRST 1+9 for residual silver (fixing) and HT-2 for residual hypo (washing). Nothing beats having your own reliable data.

Doremus

 

[radiant]

shouldn't the Ph be closer to 7.0?

We are talking about drinkable tap water here. Typically tap water is 7,3 – 8,0 ph and the requirement is 6,5 – 9,5. Quite wide margin actually. They want to keep the tap water alkaline so that the pipes do not corrode.

Before investing in a way to measure the quality of your tap water, check with your water provider.

I attached the analysis of my tap water above. Could you take a look at it and tell if something is problematic with the values?

Hang the film on a diagonal, as Maris mentions above

This is interesting tip. How do you do that?

 

[Philippe-Georges]

This paper might be interesting too:

 

[BMbikerider]

When I lived in the south of England I occasionally had problems with streaking and water droplets. However since moving to the north the water quality is far better. The difference being the water in the south has a high lime content and is as hard as hell, while the water where i live now is mainly water collected from rivers and stored in above ground reservoirs before being treated for consumption. Consequently it has an almost zero lime content tending to be slightly acidic. The final rinse is always in a static tank with a drop of Ilford wetting agent for anything up to 5 mins and then hung up to dry. I cannot remember when the last time was I had water marks.

 

[tokam]

This is what works for me, every time. Do your usual washing, then whip the film strip a little to remove excess water. Hang it to dry in a bathroom that has had the shower run for a while to get it nice and humid. Then spritz both sides of the negs w/ some distilled water from a little sprayer. Lastly, get out of the bathroom and resist the temptation to ck on things for about an hr at least.

The idea is to have the water on the negs dry slowly, and the humid environment does that. Since the distilled water was the last thing to touch the negs, no issues from that. I use the same technique w/ FB and RC prints, no more drying marks on them either.

I agree with the whipping action of the film strip. Just attach the film clips to each end of the strip of negs. Hold on tight and give the film 2 or 3 whips. The larger drops of water on the non-emulsion side are driven off leaving a few pinhead sized droplets which will evaporate quickly. The emulsion side of the film should have an even layer of water still soaking the emulsion.

I'm not sure about spritzing the film with more water as you have just tried to get rid of excess water on the film. Whatever works for all of us. Also, only a drop or two of photoflo in the final rinse. Raise and lower the reel in the solution a few times and leave to soak for a couple of minutes. You want to see minimal bubbles in the photoflo solution.

I still get particle or dust marks even though I filter my water and solutions before use. Not too many and they clone out after scanning.

 

[radiant]

I still get particle or dust marks even though I filter my water and solutions before use. Not too many and they clone out after scanning.

Remember this is 100% analog forum. Solution to dirty negatives is not to fix things in "post" or digitally here.

 

[brian steinberger]

This is interesting tip. How do you do that?

I will post this evening with a picture of my set up for hanging diagonally.

 

[warden]

What is the most ultimate way to wash and clean negatives after developing?

I've tried two different "photoflo" liquids with low concentration, normal and higher concentration. I've tried de-ionized water from optical lab. Nothing seems to end up with 100% clean negatives. The emulsion is typically really clean but the backing side has ugly streaks and dots no matter what I do.

What about keeping the negatives longer in DI-water? Or is this something to do with drying speed? Should I build drying machine?

Should I just post-clean the negatives with for example IPA or other cleaning solution?

So many questions. Please share the most effective way to wash films.

I had troubles with drying marks, and found that switching to a final rinse with distilled water and a touch of Ilfotol removed virtually all the problem. I still get a rare visible drying mark on a roll (only on the backing side) which is easy to post clean without damaging the backing. I dry the film in a homemade foam core box to keep the dust off of it, which works.

 

[Kino]

Bill Troop and Steve Anchell state in the "Film Developing Cookbook" that the "Ilford method" of film washing is essentially is correct IF you add a 5 minute waiting period between tank fill/inversion and the next tank/fill.

Take it for what it is worth; I used the method for years without the 5 minute wait between tank refill and agitation with wash water and my negatives have been fine, but that is up to you.

 

[warden]

Bill Troop and Steve Anchell state in the "Film Developing Cookbook" that the "Ilford method" of film washing is essentially is correct IF you add a 5 minute waiting period between tank fill/inversion and the next tank/fill.

Take it for what it is worth; I used the method for years without the 5 minute wait between tank refill and agitation with wash water and my negatives have been fine, but that is up to you.

Wow that's interesting, I've only used the Ilford method but don't pause between steps. I'd go a little batty if I had to wait that long while washing so I most likely won't.

 

[tokam]

Remember this is 100% analog forum. Solution to dirty negatives is not to fix things in "post" or digitally here.

Oops. Sorry about that but up until the dried negs are cut up and placed into protective sleeves, my points still hold.

(...wanders off muttering to himself "Maybe I should start a new thread about print spotting. Better practise first. Now where in the hell are my brushes, knives and dyes. Bugger!! My tubes of Paterson retouching dyes have gone rock hard. Perhaps because I haven't used them in 30 years...".)

 

[bluechromis]

This is quote from the PE about washing:

"I have posted this before, but Mason, one of the early proponents of the sequential dump and fill showed mathematically and in practice that this method was not as effective as a stream of continuously running water for washing film or paper. He therefore repudiated the dump and fill method. I posted the equations in another thread on this same subject which keeps coming up over and over.

The best wash is a stream of constantly flowing water which is kept up until the photomaterial tests free of hypo residue and silver halide using the appropriate tests. The only way to change this is to change dC/dT or the change in concentration in the photoproduct with respect to time and this can only be changed by changing dD/dT or the change in diffusion rate of the unwanted materials with respect to time."

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/washing-film-best-environmentally-friendly-way-to-do-it.43248/

His statement might be taken in the context of all things being equal, what is the ideal washing method? It may be different if one looks at it from the perspective of water conservation and asks whether the Ilford method can provide adequate washing even if it is not quite as efficient as the Kodak constant flow approach.

 

[radiant]

I developed some films yesterday and examined the results.

I found out that the dirt I have been seeing is wetting agent. I washed the films again in distilled water (after testing with wetting agent) and got MUCH better results, only few small chalk (?) dots on the back side. And yes nothing that I couldn't wipe off for sure. Someone previously mentioned on this thread that excessive wetting agent is bad. For sure it is. But I was using the recommended amount. I will try again today with "just a tad" and see if it changes anything. I think the error is to use the recommended amount of wetting agent.

I also tested whipping away the excessive water. It helps a bit, not a dramatic effect but a difference. I did the whipping while the film was inside the reel. I will probably get a salad dryer for this.

Currently my suggestion is that do the final rinse with pure distilled water and you should be fine. Or maybe two rinses with distilled. And whip the excessive water as much as you can.

 

[radiant]

Film washing has two phases:

A) How to remove residual fixer / archiving wash
B) How to remove chalk or other visual marks from the film

I think phase A is pretty straightforward to do. One can add thio clear (from squirt bottle) to some of the rinses if you really want to make sure. But I'm assured that the Ilford method is sufficient for A.