The ultimate film washing method

[brian steinberger]

I think we are about to find The Ultimate Film Washing Method:
- use small amount of photoflo (no bubbles, foam!) with distilled water
- hang in angle to dry

I really hope this works for you. The key is finding out the right number of drops of photo flo. Keep us posted.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I do not use distilled water. I use tap water and mix PhotoFlo at exactly 1:200 and soak for over a minute with the film off the reel [leaving the film on the reel gets the reel sticky from the PhotoFlo and hard to get properly clean again], hang the film and use a paper towel at the corner of the bottom of the film to draw off any excess. I never wipe or squeegee the film and I never have problems with stains or streaks.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I've proven that if I use it at recommended dilution, the film looks like it has been in sewage water
I understand the purpose of it but how little is enough to cause surface tension effect? I will try that out.
With distilled water I got only small drop marks on the film - which of course I would like to get rid of.

I see that you're in Finland. When I lived in Europe, I could get Photo Flo with different formulations (some with ethylene glycol, some without) and to be mixed at different dilutions. The U.S. version of Photo Flo that is readily available should be diluted 1:200, but in Europe I had a batch that was to be diluted 1:600 (i.e., the concentrate was three times as strong). Maybe you've got the 1:600 product and are diluting it 1:200? Just a wild guess.

If your water is hard, mixing the Photo Flo with distilled water is important. Then, you need to give your film a longer soak in the final Photo Flo bath to allow the minerals in the emulsion to leach out into the Photo Flo solution. I like 3-5 minutes (longer won't hurt). If you just need the surfactant action, then 30 seconds will do the trick, but if you need to get rid of minerals from hard water, longer is needed.

Distilled water alone can still leave "drying marks," if there are droplets on the film when it is drying. The marks are caused by the different drying rates of the emulsion and the tensions resulting from that. If you could squeegee all the droplets off (without damaging the film) then drying would be even and likely there would be no marks. That's difficult enough to do consistently that a wetting agent like Photo Flo is almost universally used.

Best

Doremus

 

[tokam]

Well, that was an interesting test with using Photoflo 1+200.

First of all I tried to calculate number of drops per ml. I drew up 2.5 ml Photoflo into a syringe and tried to dispense it drop by drop into a spoon. I lost count around the 60 drop mark. The drop size may also not be the same as my normal usage; i.e. dip my thermometer into neat Photoflo and allow a few drops to fall into tank with final wash water.

I then mixed up a beaker of Photoflo 1+200 and allowed it to stand for about 20 mins before I started development. There were a few bubbles which had disappeared before I came to use it.

After the final wash I drained the tank and gently poured the Photoflo solution. I got a load of foaming in the tank which gave me reservations at first about removing the film reel through the bubbles.

I followed my normal hanging procedure which is to attach film to clips and give the film 4 or 5 whips to shake off surface drops.

Normally at this stage I would see sheeting of water across the emulsion side and just pin head sized drops on the non emulsion side. In this case the water was sheeting fully across both sides of the film. The Photoflo was doing its job fully. I also noticed a large number of tiny oblects in the sheeted water which I now realise were little air bubbles, smaller than pin head size.

The film dried perfectly without any water marks or chalk deposits of any kind. It's as good as I have ever seen. There may be dust particles but I haven't scanned it yet but as I said previously, dust is like death and taxes.

Will I change my usage of Photoflo? I don't know. The only downsides for me are the extra prep work in preparing yet another solution in addition to dev / stop / fix and my Photoflo consumption will rocket from less than 3 bottles in 40 years to maybe one bottle every 2 years or so .

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I never put my reels into Photo-flo.
I take the film off the reel, and then carefully coil it loosely into a wide mouthed one litre measuring graduate. A large re-purposed plastic ice cream container works just as well. I stop when the film is fully submerged, and not clinging to itself.
I then slowly agitate the film and the Photo-flo - just enough to keep the film and Photo-flo moving gently and not sticking. A minute is usually enough.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

After the final wash I drained the tank and gently poured the Photoflo solution. I got a load of foaming in the tank which gave me reservations at first about removing the film reel through the bubbles.

If you pour your Rinse aid solution on the wall/lip of the tank in the direction and spot shown, you won't get any notable foaming even with very strong/foaming dilutions. I use 2x as strong, agitate with stick every 30s and haven't seen such a blanket of foam in my life, even souping both reels in it for the usual 2 minutes.

 

[radiant]

I see that you're in Finland. When I lived in Europe, I could get Photo Flo with different formulations (some with ethylene glycol, some without) and to be mixed at different dilutions. The U.S. version of Photo Flo that is readily available should be diluted 1:200, but in Europe I had a batch that was to be diluted 1:600 (i.e., the concentrate was three times as strong). Maybe you've got the 1:600 product and are diluting it 1:200? Just a wild guess.

If your water is hard, mixing the Photo Flo with distilled water is important. Then, you need to give your film a longer soak in the final Photo Flo bath to allow the minerals in the emulsion to leach out into the Photo Flo solution. I like 3-5 minutes (longer won't hurt). If you just need the surfactant action, then 30 seconds will do the trick, but if you need to get rid of minerals from hard water, longer is needed.

Distilled water alone can still leave "drying marks," if there are droplets on the film when it is drying. The marks are caused by the different drying rates of the emulsion and the tensions resulting from that. If you could squeegee all the droplets off (without damaging the film) then drying would be even and likely there would be no marks. That's difficult enough to do consistently that a wetting agent like Photo Flo is almost universally used.

Thanks for the insight!

I've been using this one: https://www.nordfoto.de/Analoge-Fot...tting-Agent-aehnlich-Agepon-120-ml::9734.html - mixed 7ml to 1500ml of water.

The hardness of our tap water is currently 3.4 dH, ph is 8.0 and it contains 0.3mg/l chlorine.

But as I wrote before I got really dirty negatives with distilled water + wetting agent mixed like above.

FWIW, I never put my reels into Photo-flo.

This might be new "pre-soak or not" There have been some who say no problem and some who just do wetting out of reel. Is there real science in this? For example when developing 5 rolls at a time, it is extra hassle.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

I guess it depends on your process and chems you use. I soup my reels regularly, but they're white AF - just as fresh as in the first day I used it 6 years ago. Then again, reversal sees bleach and clearing agent that the regular process won't.

 

[radiant]

I guess it depends on your process and chems you use. I soup my reels regularly, but they're white AF - just as fresh as in the first day I used it 6 years ago. Then again, reversal sees bleach and clearing agent that the regular process won't.

Mine was clean too before I tried PyroCat. That was a total mistake. My photos didn't get better at all and reels got brown color

 

[tokam]

Removing film from the reel presents a small risk of physical damage to the emulsion if you are not very careful. I try to minimise physical contact with the film until it is dry and the emulsion has hardened off a bit. This is why most of us gave up on the use of a squeegee shortly after the dinosaurs were wiped out.

Another downside to using Photoflo on the reels is of course potentially falling victim to the "sticky Paterson reel syndrome". Matt's approach will minimise this although I believe that gelatine shedding from the emulsion during development also contributes to a build up of material in the reel grooves. Just keep washing the reels after use. (If you put them in the dishwasher at night after your wife has gone to bed you may get away with it and not get bawled out in the morning. Get up before her and remove the washed reels .)

Jeez. The religious wars regarding film processing are a continuous source of both information and entertainment. (I won't go into the practice of worshipping at the high altar of Rodinal coz I don't go there...)

 

[albada]

BTW: has anyone experiences from final wash on distilled water with/without wetting agent?

I wash film this way, and I get *no* drying spots. Negatives look perfect.
But after pulling the reel of 35mm film out of the water, I fling it by hand to remove as much water as possible. Then when I remove the film from the reel, there are no large water-drops on it.

Mark Overton

 

[Philippe-Georges]

After the final SISTAN bath, I hang them in the drying cabinet without the heating (normally around 40°C) as the sheets tend to curl a little and the drops at the lowest corner ar drying in as circular marks.
You can easily these drops, I usually tick them off.

 

[radiant]

I wash film this way, and I get *no* drying spots. Negatives look perfect.
But after pulling the reel of 35mm film out of the water, I fling it by hand to remove as much water as possible. Then when I remove the film from the reel, there are no large water-drops on it.

As I saw only few spots on the negative after my distilled water rinse (no wetting), I think this might also work. Just need to get those small drops off.

For sheet film I haven't had any problems. 120 films are usually pretty clean too. The troublemaker is 135 size film..

 

[lantau]

Well, that was an interesting test with using Photoflo 1+200.

First of all I tried to calculate number of drops per ml. I drew up 2.5 ml Photoflo into a syringe and tried to dispense it drop by drop into a spoon. I lost count around the 60 drop mark. The drop size may also not be the same as my normal usage; i.e. dip my thermometer into neat Photoflo and allow a few drops to fall into tank with final wash water.

I then mixed up a beaker of Photoflo 1+200 and allowed it to stand for about 20 mins before I started development. There were a few bubbles which had disappeared before I came to use it.

After the final wash I drained the tank and gently poured the Photoflo solution. I got a load of foaming in the tank which gave me reservations at first about removing the film reel through the bubbles.

View attachment 295520

I followed my normal hanging procedure which is to attach film to clips and give the film 4 or 5 whips to shake off surface drops.

Normally at this stage I would see sheeting of water across the emulsion side and just pin head sized drops on the non emulsion side. In this case the water was sheeting fully across both sides of the film. The Photoflo was doing its job fully. I also noticed a large number of tiny oblects in the sheeted water which I now realise were little air bubbles, smaller than pin head size.

The film dried perfectly without any water marks or chalk deposits of any kind. It's as good as I have ever seen. There may be dust particles but I haven't scanned it yet but as I said previously, dust is like death and taxes.

Will I change my usage of Photoflo? I don't know. The only downsides for me are the extra prep work in preparing yet another solution in addition to dev / stop / fix and my Photoflo consumption will rocket from less than 3 bottles in 40 years to maybe one bottle every 2 years or so .

I'm using Photoflo 200 (there are others) and mix it 1+200. I do get the foam like you. Exactly the same when using Adox Adoflo. If you want sufficient surfactant activity, you'll just have to live with foam. IMHO, if you dilute it until you have no foam I'd call it homeopathy.

I guess everyone will have to find their own way. Let me just detail how I deal with the foam issue. Maybe it will give some inspiration for your own method.

I remove the foam in two stages. I hold the tank like I'm about to pour out the solution, just so that it doesn't, actually. With the back of my fingers I push the foam out. Then with the index finger I do a circular motion around the tank walls. That pushes all the remaining foam to one spot, where I can either push it out, again, or pour it out with a little solution.

Then I remove the spiral (I already remove the vertical tube after the fixer stage, it is only the spiral in the tank), which will create more bubbles. Like the toys with which you blow soap bubbles. I take off the upper half of the spiral and gently replace the lower part with the film into the tank. The film will usually get out of the track and wind into a wide roll.

Again, I remove the foam, which is different now. Large bubbles. Not really a foam anymore. Then I look where the end of the film is on the inside of the 'roll' is and gently grab it. Yes you'll push the inner winding of the film against the outer ones doing so. And then I slowly pull the film through the surface of the, nearly foam free, solution. It is winding out like a snake. I attach the metal clip, hang it from the drying frame and attach another clip at the bottom.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

With tap water: Fill dump. Fill dump. Fill dump. Rinse in HCA. Fill dump. Fill dump. Fill dump with tap water. Fill and let it soak while eating a tuna sandwich. Fill dump. Fill dump. Fill dump followed by distilled water with a surfactant added. Hang to dry. Bob's your uncle. Burp.

 

[Nicholas Lindan]

I make up a stock solution of PhotoFlo and alcohol: 13ml PhotoFlo 600 + 1l 70% isopropanol. I dilute this 1:7 for a working solution. 40ml of PhotoFlo 200 would also work, but I bought a gallon of 600 when it was going out of production - several lifetime's worth.

The PhotoFlo ends up at 1:600 and the alcohol at ~10%. That's enough alcohol to give a 'tearing' effect (like the tears on the inside of a wine glass) that helps the water sheet off the film.

 

[MattKing]

I make up a stock solution of PhotoFlo and alcohol: 13ml PhotoFlo 600 + 1l 70% isopropanol. I dilute this 1:7 for a working solution. 40ml of PhotoFlo 200 would also work, but I bought a gallon of 600 when it was going out of production - several lifetime's worth.

The PhotoFlo ends up at 1:600 and the alcohol at ~10%. That's enough alcohol to give a 'tearing' effect (like the tears on the inside of a wine glass) that helps the water sheet off the film.

Apparently Nicholas and I are of like minds - although my recipe (see my post earlier in the thread) uses Photo-flo 200 in a 250 ml bottle.
In case it isn't clear, the main reason to use the alcohol in the stock solution is to inhibit growth of mould and other nasties in the stock solution. If you use water for the stock solution, the nasties love it!