The ultimate film washing method

[radiant]

What is the most ultimate way to wash and clean negatives after developing?

I've tried two different "photoflo" liquids with low concentration, normal and higher concentration. I've tried de-ionized water from optical lab. Nothing seems to end up with 100% clean negatives. The emulsion is typically really clean but the backing side has ugly streaks and dots no matter what I do.

What about keeping the negatives longer in DI-water? Or is this something to do with drying speed? Should I build drying machine?

Should I just post-clean the negatives with for example IPA or other cleaning solution?

So many questions. Please share the most effective way to wash films.

 

[Nitroplait]

I cannot give an ultimate way to wash films, but I can tell you what I do to avoid stains.
I use Reverse Osmosis water (with residual solids of 12-14ppm) for the final rinse/dip (10-15min) with as little "photoflo" (I use the Fujifilm variant) as possible in the tank - probably no more than a drop for a tank of 4 35mm rolls.
Shake the spirals well and hang the film in a medium humidity low dust environment (our bathroom) with no further touching.
There will be an occasional streak on the back side but never something that couldn't be removed gently with a lens cleaning cloth if it shows up on a print or a scan - I don't sweat over things I don't see in the final result.
I have also used this method with distilled water and it works the same. For a periode of time I used only a carbonfilter when I lived in a soft water area of Japan - I don't recall that I had particular problems during that period.

For the actual film washing process, I have recently started using ILFORD's recommended way for reducing water waste. (except I use only one drop of wetting agent and RO water as mentioned above). I have not noticed any changes regarding stains on my dried film following that.

If I were you, I would probably first try with Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water in place of DI water to see if that makes a difference, and only as little "photoflo" as possible just to remove the water surface tension. I personally wouldn't mess with additional chemicals.

 

[albada]

I use Nitroplait's method described above.

1. Ilford's wash method.
2. A final soak in distilled water.
3. Shake as much water out of the reel as possible.

After pulling a reel out of the distilled water, I'm very careful to not get any tap water on my fingers.
My dryer consists of vertical PVC pipes into which I hang the films, with gentle air pumped through using a small fan that draws air through a HEPA filter.
Negatives are spotless and dustless.

Mark Overton

I cannot give an ultimate way to wash films, but I can tell you what I do to avoid stains.
I use Reverse Osmosis water (with residual solids of 12-14ppm) for the final rinse/dip (10-15min) with as little "photoflo" (I use the Fujifilm variant) as possible in the tank - probably no more than a drop for a tank of 4 35mm rolls.
Shake the spirals well and hang the film in a medium humidity low dust environment (our bathroom) with no further touching.
There will be an occasional streak on the back side but never something that couldn't be removed gently with a lens cleaning cloth if it shows up on a print or a scan - I don't sweat over things I don't see in the final result.
I have also used this method with distilled water and it works the same. For a periode of time I used only a carbonfilter when I lived in a soft water area of Japan - I don't recall that I had particular problems during that period.

For the actual film washing process, I have recently started using ILFORD's recommended way for reducing water waste. I have not noticed any changes regarding stains on my dried film following that.

If I were you, I would probably first try with Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water in place of DI water to see if that makes a difference, and only as little "photoflo" as possible just to remove the water surface tension. I personally wouldn't mess with additional chemicals.

 

[radiant]

Good tips.

Does the time spent in photoflo - dip matter? 1 minutes or 15 minutes?

Do you still dip the film in distilled water after photoflo?

The water I'm using should be pretty clean, I think. It is used for cleaning optical things so I think it is filtered & de-ionized. Or is the de-ionizing bad?

Many stories of using photoflo is saying that the water is flowing down in constant stream. No matter what I do, it doesn't. There will be always some drops left behind..

 

[250swb]

I use the Ilford wash method followed by a brief soak in a solution of Ilfotol, tap water and not distilled, I guess that depends on the water quality and ph. in your area. In the past few years I've switched to Ilfotol from Kodak or Fotospeed wetting agents and found it leaves much cleaner negatives, I have no idea why, wetting agents should all be more or less the same.

 

[Nitroplait]

Good tips.

Does the time spent in photoflo - dip matter? 1 minutes or 15 minutes?

Do you still dip the film in distilled water after photoflo?

The water I'm using should be pretty clean, I think. It is used for cleaning optical things so I think it is filtered & de-ionized. Or is the de-ionizing bad?

Many stories of using photoflo is saying that the water is flowing down in constant stream. No matter what I do, it doesn't. There will be always some drops left behind..

Time in photoflo: I use our regular (very hard) tap water for the rinsing steps except for the last photoflo dip. I have never experimented much after things works out for me, but in my head I imagine that it takes a little time to "dilute" the hard water "trapped" in the emulsion - However, I have absolutely no empirical evidence of that.

No dip after photoflo. Photoflo reduces water surface tension - dipping it in water without photoflo after, only makes sense if you used too much photoflo by accident - otherwise you will just be introducing surface tension again.

I can't comment on the quality of your DI water, but buying a bottle of distilled water is a fairly easy way to see if it makes a difference.

Photoflo does not make water miraculously slide of your film without trace. Primarily it prevents droplets from forming on the emulsion side of the film when drying by reducing the water's surface tension. The surface tension of water droplets drying would cause visibly defined edges to form in/on the emulsion - especially when using water containing medium to high levels of dissolved solids (most tap water).

Water will form on the rear side of the film - it can't just slide off, but should not leave much residue when using mineral-less water (unless you used too much photoflo). As noted in my first reply, it is normally easy to remove residue with a clean lens cleaning tissue, or a clean optical brush as it shouldn't stick to the shiny surface.

 

[otto.f]

Ansel Adams’ way: hypoclearing agent from Kodak for 2’ and then 10’ rinse in running water, slowly if you wish (for cleaning the fixer agitation is not important; refreshing it 6 times in 10’ is also ok) and then 1’ photoflo; I use Adoflo, perfect. I use 2 Kleenex soft tissues to wipe, one stroke. Perfect negatives with this procedure.

 

[Nitroplait]

Just a thought. I don't know why it isn't more common for photographers to own a measuring device that measures water conductivity.
It would take a lot of guesswork out of evaluating the water quality. A simple TDS meter will tell you how much dissolved solids you have in your water - preferable measured in ppm (parts pr million=milligrams pr. liter).
I have found that film developer dissolved in softer water is slightly more potent than that in very hard water - therefore it is beneficial to know the water quality if you change water supply.
And especially like here, a TDS meter could help troubleshoot a water stain issue - how much dissolved solid is in the water available to my?
I have owned a couple of TDS meters over the years, and can recommend this - which is relatively inexpensive: http://hmdigital.com/product/ap-1/
No affiliation.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

This is funny. For all the years I've done film in my own house:

1. only use tap water (chemical mixing AND any washing), quite hard in where I live, so deposit from dried water is a given
2. film is washed in running water,
3. it is then placed in photo-flo bath "roughly" as per ratio, but I only check mixture with fingers just to feel it slightly slippery, essentially hardly any foaming happens on top when stirred (I don't shake so don't know)
4. film is kept in photo-flo mix for maybe a minute, then it is hung up as usual
5. once film is hanging, I take photo-flo mix to the top and slowly cascade it onto the film so it runs down full width, same on both sides

Never have I seen spots or streaks, and I only need to wait for photo-flo mix to drain itself off to see if I need repeat, which sometimes I have to.

That is all, my "ultimate" way. No bullshit with MIT laboratory equipment, checking water for all kinds of shit it might or might not have in. I cannot more scientific explanation, it just works.

 

[Paul Howell]

Here in the Desert Southwest our water is really hard, after fix, 2m wash, followed by 2m in a clearing bath with agitation, I use Permawash, 10m wash running water using a dedicated film washer for roll film, then 1m in photoflow in distilled water, first 30s constant agitation, then 30s soak hang to dry.

 

[radiant]

Water will form on the rear side of the film - it can't just slide off, but should not leave much residue when using mineral-less water (unless you used too much photoflo). As noted in my first reply, it is normally easy to remove residue with a clean lens cleaning tissue, or a clean optical brush as it shouldn't stick to the shiny surface.

Ah, this is good to hear. Usually some marks on the rear side don't matter to me but I was printing+scanning thin negatives at grade 5 (would have need even more) and then these marks started to show on scan+print.

I can't comment on the quality of your DI water, but buying a bottle of distilled water is a fairly easy way to see if it makes a difference.

True. But it is hard to find distilled water, all car battery waters are just DI water. But I'm starting to really think that my DI water isn't the problem here at all.

I use 2 Kleenex soft tissues to wipe, one stroke. Perfect negatives with this procedure.

Are you wiping your wet negatives with Kleenex? Doesn't it leave dust all over?

After washing in regular water I do the final photo flo soak in distilled/deionized water with photo flo. Follow Kodak’s photo flo instructions for concentration, or you can use less photo flo, but I would not use more. Then I hang to dry overnight. No wiping etc. I never have a mark on the base or emulsion.

No marks ever? That is crazy.

I've started to think if my first washes aren't sufficient to remove all fixer residue. Maybe that is the problem. I need to try better washing too. And some TLC DI+photoflo for a decent amount too. Maybe I haven't been careful enough..

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I've started to think if my first washes aren't sufficient to remove all fixer residue. Maybe that is the problem. I need to try better washing too. And some TLC DI+photoflo for a decent amount too. Maybe I haven't been careful enough..

For sure you cannot have too much photo-flo, it will screw things up, guaranteed. But some of the entries in posted replies remind me of a number of other topics when people go through an insane amount of trouble and still have issues with whatever the problem.

If one can get clean film without ever using distilled or even DI water, water is not a problem, and should not be for anyone (excepting perhaps well water, depending on its actual quality). Simple mechanical filtration will remove particles. That leaves mineral composition. Since I've used tap water in US (East Coast, NE) and here in Poland, with same end result, I just wonder what is being done with surely similar water that causes troubles?

When I cascade photo-flo mix onto the film as last step (never any wiping afterwards) I only make sure that entire film's length and width is covered by that waterfall. If photo-flo amount is insufficient, it shows immediately during that run as it forms "veins" at an instant. If mix is correct enough, it flows full width and all the way down. Then there is still some tiny bits left here and there, which eventually flows off or dries up, no marks.

 

[Ivo Stunga]

What I do and can wash 10 films before noticing any problems - 2x the recommended dose of rinse aid in 1l of distilled water.

When final wash after fix is done, I shake the water off my reel very well - like a thermometer - to avoid any avoidable contamination.
Then I treat it there submerged for 2 minutes with intermittent agitation.
Then I shake the rinse aid off the reel again really well, and hang film to dry.
There's no much water left to accumulate shit on your film and it dries pretty fast too. Works like a charm and gives no problems 60x magnified.

If that doesn't work alone maybe an additional prewash in distilled water would help before the rinse aid treatment?

 

[abruzzi]

I use tap water for everything except mixing PyrocatHD and the final photoflo bath which is ~10 drops of photoflo in 500ml of distilled water for about 30 seconds. (I don't know how that compares to Kodak's reccomended method.) Once I switched to that method I haven't even bothered to squeege the film and it comes out perfect.

The worst thing to do, I've found is use the stabilizer in color films as the last step. If you do that, the result will be awful. Still use distilled water and photoflo after the stabilizer.

 

[Patrick Robert James]

Never had any luck with PhotoFlo. No matter what I did I always got streaks. Edwal's LFN used to work for me and I liked using it since there was nothing to mix. Just add a drop or two to the last soak, slosh it around a bit then hang up.

These days though I just use a Kimwipe with a gentle touch. Removing the water off the film keeps any problems from happening. If I had a film drying cabinet I'd go back to using LFN.

Another option I have used before is alcohol. Fill the bottom of a cut off soda bottle with 91% isopropyl alcohol and dip the film in that. The alcohol displaces the water and also dries really fast which is nice. Just don't apply heat if you do the alcohol thing. The negs can get a little foggy for some reason if you do.

Hope that helps.

 

[mshchem]

Regarding water marks, after washing I finish with a couple drops of photoflo in demineralized water. Leave the film on the reel, immerse in the photoflo, 30s, clip and hang. Walk away let it dry naturally, no hot air.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I never had a problem with PhotoFlo. I mixed it exactly per the directions. Soak for at least 30 seconds, I wait a minute. Hung the film and then rather than wipe the film, I put a paper towel at the lowest corner of the film and draw off the water solution with a paper towel. Never touch the surface of the film, only the edges. I air dry completely in a shower with the door closed to keep dust from floating by. No hot air.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hm... interesting... If I were to guess reading people's experiences, looks like bad tap water can cause issues even when a wetting agent mixed with distilled water are used for the last bath. Perhaps switching to 100% distilled water based baths is the ultimate solution? In my process film never comes in contact with tap water.

It depends on your water. I have always used tap water in Los Angeles and never had a problem even though the water is hard. For most of the US tap water does not cause a problem with film.

 

[MattKing]

I use alcohol as part of my workflow, but admit that our tap water here is clean and soft.
Here is my method:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/making-and-using-a-kodak-photo-flo-stock-solution.396/

 

[gone]

This is what works for me, every time. Do your usual washing, then whip the film strip a little to remove excess water. Hang it to dry in a bathroom that has had the shower run for a while to get it nice and humid. Then spritz both sides of the negs w/ some distilled water from a little sprayer. Lastly, get out of the bathroom and resist the temptation to ck on things for about an hr at least.

The idea is to have the water on the negs dry slowly, and the humid environment does that. Since the distilled water was the last thing to touch the negs, no issues from that. I use the same technique w/ FB and RC prints, no more drying marks on them either.

 

[mshchem]

Hm... interesting... If I were to guess reading people's experiences, looks like bad tap water can cause issues even when a wetting agent mixed with distilled water are used for the last bath. Perhaps switching to 100% distilled water based baths is the ultimate solution? In my process film never comes in contact with tap water.

I think it really depends on your individual situation. I use RO water for solutions where I am now, the water is very high in minerals. The city where I lived in my younger days had great water, never fooled with DI water.

I had a bad squeegee experience years ago. There should be a warning label "This Product Scratches Negatives!"

 

[JerseyDoug]

I only develop 35mm film. I use distilled water for everything. Ilford Wash Method (5 inversions, 10 inversions, 20 inversions). NO final rinse. Pour the 20-inversion water over my hands when I remove the film from the Kindermann tank. Hold the ends of the film firmly and snap it out straight several times to remove most of the water. Hang the film in the shower stall with Paterson clips. Squeegee one pass down the film between my wet first and second fingers with minimal pressure. Walk away. (1.5 liters of distilled water used.)

I have been doing this for years. No scratches, no water spots and very very little dust. Every time I switch to a different film or fixer I re-do a residual hypo test. The results are always negative. NB I only use cubic grain films. I don't know what the result would be with a tabular grain film.

 

[reddesert]

I have hard city tap water and old pipes. I use distilled water to mix developer just to avoid possible effects from dissolved minerals including iron, but I use tap water for the stop, fix, and wash aid. I fix a bit longer than recommended to be conservative, use wash aid, wash in running tap water, then the last step is Photo-Flo in distilled water at the recommended dilution (never stronger). Hang to dry in the bathroom. No extra magic stuff, no squeegee, no hot air dryer, certainly no rinse after the Photo-Flo; the point of the wetting agent is it should be the last solution to touch film. It should be running smoothly off the film as you hang it up.

When I lived in a place with non-hard tap water I just used tap water for all steps. I think deionized water should work as well as distilled water.

My air is very dry and I think hanging the film in the extra humidity of the bathroom is supposed to help the film curl less; I don't think it affects water marks.

 

[Paul Howell]

"My air is very dry and I think hanging the film in the extra humidity of the bathroom is supposed to help the film curl less; I don't think it affects water marks."

Living the desert I think the additional humidity helps settle dust in the air. Unless last month our water in South Scottsdale was really hard, a white film on the bottom of glass is left out for a day, the city installed a new water treatment plant and our water quality has improved to the point that I can use tap water for developers, maybe for the wetting agent.

 

[Maris]

If the water plus Photoflo mixture is more concentrated than the minimum needed to produce foam then there is a potential for streaks.
If the water plus Photoflo mixture dries and stops flowing down the film before all visible traces of it have dripped off the end there is potential for streaks.
Apparently no one but me does this but it seems to work:
Hang the film, as wet as possible, edge on at a 45 degree angle. Now the water plus Photoflo mixture only has to get across the width of the film not down its entire length before it dries.
And if a drying mark should appear it is on the edge of the film and not in the picture area.