The return of the Syrup: HC-110 in the water-free version manufactured again

[chuckroast]

An apples and oranges comparison though.
(Relative) ease of use, minimal storage space requirements, no need for experience mixing from constituent parts using scales or precise volumetric measurements, easily transported to borrowed darkroom facilities, easily shared between groups of users.
All sorts of use characteristics that make it (HC-110) much more appropriate for a lot of users who are a very different target market than the one you fit into.
And most likely, a much larger target market than the one you fit into.
As someone who really can't set things up for mixing my own developers - temporary darkroom space and a need to store things a bit of a distance away from where I actually use them - I'm more in the HC-110 market as well.

Fair enough, and very much on point.

I also went back and looked at the inflationary pressure on spending power from 1980 through today - it's about 4X. By that measure, the prices today for HC-110 are very roughly comparable to what we might have paid 45 years ago.

I take it all back This is what happens when I don't do my homework first. I will slink off now and sit in the corner of a dark room for hours to make penance ...

 

[brbo]

Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

No.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

You can. Not you must .

Essentially, making a 1+3 solution is to make it easier to measure the working solution and avoid having to use a syringe.

 

[logan2z]

I've used the old syrupy Kodak formulation in the past and it was easy enough to measure out a small amount using a syringe. But I've since switched to the L110 'clone' from Legacy Pro. It has the consistency of water, which makes it easier to pour, although I still use a syringe to extract the required amount from the amber bottles into which I decant the full bottle.

The same dilution and development time I used for HC-110 works for L110 and the concentrate seems to last long enough for my purposes. L110 has also been consistently available while HC-110 has gone in and out of production. I don't see any compelling reason to switch back to the Kodak branded product.

 

[MattKing]

Is it accurate to say:
All HC-110 varients have a very long shelf life as long as the bottle is unopened

Yes.

Is it accurate to say:

An unopened bottle of the viscous (water free) versions probably won't last any longer than the thinner versions?

They tend to last for many, many years - decades in some cases. Thee newer less viscous versions haven't been around long enough to tell whether decades long longevity is a possibility, but its probably unlikely. There seems to be some indication that the newer stuff has very long life when unopened, but there isn't much data.

Is it accurate to say:

Once made into a 1+3 stock solution, the HC-110 developers storage life is no better than many other stock solutions

Yes

I say "might have a longer life" because I still don't know how long we can expect the water-based concentrated developer to last if it is in an opened bottle which is less than full. If it's more than 6 months, then the thin ones would have an advantage over the thick ones, right?

It isn't "water based". It just hasn't had all the water excluded/removed from it.

Is it accurate to say:

Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

The manufacturers make several, complementary recommendations. One of those recommendations is for high volume users - think commercial labs or shared community/school darkrooms or very busy photographers - is to make up a stock solution and then use it quickly. Other recommendations describe how to use it for one roll/tank at a time. The latter is what most of us do, and requires some care and precision, but it is eminently doable. There are a number of approaches to this, including how it is described in J-24.

Is it accurate to say:


If the above is true, then it seems to me a bottle of the thinner HC-110 developer (like Kodak Professional High Concentrate) might have a longer working life than the viscous type (like Ilfotc HC or the new Adox). By "working life" I mean the time between developing the first roll from the bottle and the time when the developer goes bad. Because the thin stuff can be measured to make up only what you need today, the unused portion of the bottle remains concentrated, and therefore retains its undiluted storage life -- unlike the thick stuff that gets diluted to a stock solution on day one.

It is easier to use the thinner stuff one roll/tank at a time. But it isn't all that hard to use the thicker stuff.

Most likely the biggest difference in longevity observable between the versions will be in relation to opened, partially full bottles of the concentrate. The oldest stuff tended to last and last. The newer stuff is likely to be long lasting, but not quite as long. Again, there isn't enough data out there about the newer stuff and multi year usage.

 

[Alan Johnson]

So, does that mean that the same product that is the subject of this thread is the real stuff?

From post 1 that does appear to be the claim but since the Adox SDS does not give a complete list of ingredients it is not possible to verify it.(Assumes by real stuff you mean the original Kodak syrup pre 2019),

 

[halfaman]

One curious thing about the HC-110 syrup is that it is not an active developer until diluted in water. Put a drop of syrup on top of a exposed film tail and it will do nothing.

 

[aoresteen]

Using the old syrup HC110 I would mix 1oz of syrup with 31oz of water to get to dilution B (1:31) and use it as a one-shot developer.

Do I do the same with the new 2019 HC110 water version to get Dilution B? I am down to my last bottle of my old HC110 syrup and will soon have to use the new stuff.

 

[runswithsizzers]

The manufacturers make several, complementary recommendations. One of those recommendations is for high volume users - think commercial labs or shared community/school darkrooms or very busy photographers - is to make up a stock solution and then use it quickly. Other recommendations describe how to use it for one roll/tank at a time. The latter is what most of us do, and requires some care and precision, but it is eminently doable. There are a number of approaches to this, including how it is described in J-24.

Thanks for the clarification. At first, I wasn't sure if the December 2017 J-24 Data Sheet from Kodak-Alaris was for the old (viscous syrup) version, or the newer, thinner version. But after some more searching, it looks like the thinner version was not released until 2019(?)

I assume the Kodak product described in the 2017 J-24 data sheet is no longer available, except on places like eBay. Can we also assume the J-24 data sheet instructions will work with the new Adox HC-110 Pro developer -- and/or with Ilford Ilfotec HC?

 

[Alan Johnson]

I assume the Kodak product described in the 2017 J-24 data sheet is no longer available, except on places like eBay. Can we also assume the J-24 data sheet instructions will work with the new Adox HC-110 Pro developer

Yes.
The writing on the container in post 1 says "Developing times and shelf life identical with the German version produced until 2022 and Google AI tells me "the German-made HC-110 produced until around 2022 was the original syrupy formula, not the less viscous version ".

 

[MattKing]

Yes.
The writing on the container in post 1 says "Developing times and shelf life identical with the German version produced until 2022 and Google AI tells me "the German-made HC-110 produced until around 2022 was the original syrupy formula, not the less viscous version ".

And the less viscous version was designed to be used with the same development times, for the same development results, using the most common dilutions, as the previous version.

The original version, with its matched replenisher, was designed to replace a whole variety of different developers, including a bunch that were used in Graphic Arts applications. A commercial lab that had previously been required to have a number of different developers at hand could replace them all by just having HC-110 at hand, and varying the dilution according to the use. Those labs went through huge volumes of the stuff - it also came in big cubitainers! And it could sit on a shop's shelf for as short or long a time as necessary, without concern for storage conditions. Most likely that application reality is what drove the need for the special and expensive manufacturing process. That reality no longer exists. The current reality that fuels the interest in longevity is the needs of infrequent users. Time will tell whether ADOX's decision to make something that emulates well the more expensive version is a good marketing decision.
I liked using it with the dedicated replenisher. When that disappeared from the market, I transitioned to XTOL.
I still have a small amount of the viscous HC-110 that I decanted into a smaller bottle. It would be many years old now - it probably would still work fine.

 

[F4U]

A last question (from me). They say you can use Rodinal from a half-used bottle found in an archeological dig from the Roman Empire and it still works like new. Is this HC 110 anything like that?

 

[MattKing]

A last question (from me). They say you can use Rodinal from a half-used bottle found in an archeological dig from the Roman Empire and it still works like new. Is this HC 110 anything like that?

Who knows?
Perhaps Photrio member @Augustus Caesar can chime in on the issue - in Latin, of course.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

Who knows?
Perhaps Photrio member @Augustus Caesar can chime in on the issue - in Latin, of course.

Alea jacta est

Loosely translates as "Hope my developer is still active". To be uttered every time said developer is poured in tank.

 

[loccdor]

A last question (from me). They say you can use Rodinal from a half-used bottle found in an archeological dig from the Roman Empire and it still works like new. Is this HC 110 anything like that?

So they say, of the syrupy original version.

Rodinal and HC-110 both survive long enough for me to completely use a big bottle over many years without them going bad, that's good enough for me. And I guess the same is true of Diafine and a few others.

 

[F4U]

Oops, I told a fib. I do have a last question, I promise. What is the grain like on 35mm, like Tmax 100, Tri X, And Arista EDU 400? Not knowing anything bout the dilutions, but if you mixed it up to get a D-76 or D23 similar developing time, whould the grain be about like those 2 developers? Because if it's like Rodinal on 35mm, no thanks. I don't expect a Microdol grain. but D-23 or D76 1:1 is tolerable. I'm asking these questions because I'm considering buying a bottle of this exact HC110. I'm not really liking the D23 and DK25R replinishment method.

 

[mshchem]

I wonder if there's actually documentation of what and how, went into the original made by Eastman Kodak stuff?

Will be interested to see how the Adox version works.

The original stuff was amazing.

 

[Adam W]

It's hard for me to keep all these "HC" and "110" developers straight. Ignoring the multiple Kodak versions, and looking only at Adox, I notice the product shown on Page 1 of this thread has this label:
View attachment 406927

... but when I go to the Freestyle website, I find a product with this label:
View attachment 406928
(Freestyle shows this product as, "not in stock - due September 16, 2025")

So my first question is this: Is "Adox HC-110 Pro" the same exact product as "Adox Syrup 110" -- or not?

The claim of "Extra-long shelf life" is one of the things that make me want to try some version of HC-110 developer. But what does that really mean?

So far, I have not been able to find a data sheet for HC-110 Pro from Adox. Their English website which shows the "ADOX FILM DEVELOPERS" does not even mention a "110" developer. And I cannot find a data sheet from either Fotoimpex or Freestyle. The description from Fotoimpex says it has "a basically infinite shelf life" -- which I assume is for the unopened bottle. But I am particularly interested in the working life for the stock solution (1+3) in full air-tight bottles.

Has anyone seen any official document from Adox that quotes any actual numbers for shelf life, especially once made into the stock solution?

I think they're the same. I'm guessing that HC-110 Pro is the name for the European market (on the Adox website) and "Syrup 110" is the name for the American market (on the Freestyle website.) I think its a similar situation to Adox's 500ml bottle labelled "Rodinal" and their 100ml bottle labelled "Adonal" are the same same product, just with different names for the North American and European markets to comply with trademark laws. I

 

[tykos]

I haven't done the math, but I strongly suspect I am paying far less than that for home-grown D-23, Pyrocat-HDC, Beutlers, etc.

HC-110 was great in its time and was my foundation for learning good negative management, but once I discovered PMK, it opened a rabbit hole of developer wonders from which I have yet to recover

(maybe OT, but) with current prices in my country, d76 1+1 costs 1€ per roll, more or less. That is buying in small quantities and not a kilo of hydroquinone all in one go.
hq and metol have more than doubled in the last 3 years, sodium sulfite grew as well. I'm happy i managed to buy more metol than i'd need in a lifetime some time ago, but yikes.

However, a roll costs 5-14€, that nice lens waaaay more, my time is invaluable (my employer doesn't think that, unfortunately), a sheet of baryta paper 2€. Never understood why someone would choose developer based on price, unless that someone is a lab that needs the margins.

 

[Donald Qualls]

Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

I remember back in the mid-1970s Kodak recommended making up the stock solution, but even back then those of us who used HC-110 knew we could mix working solution directly from concentrate and avoid having to store a big jug of stock or worry about the shelf life of the stock solution. If we used a lot of the stuff, there might be less waste with stock solution than with the inevitable inaccessible fraction in the concentrate bottle -- but unless you developed multiple rolls a week, you'd never get through five gallons of stock at a reasonable working dilution in a year.

 

[tykos]

Manufacturers of the viscous varients recommend mixing the whole bottle to a 1+3 stock solution when the bottle is opened
yes? no?

that is probably because of the legendary viscousness. And because hc-110 was primarly developed for labs, who ran it in big machines that finished all the bottle well before expiry.

 

[Donald Qualls]

A last question (from me). They say you can use Rodinal from a half-used bottle found in an archeological dig from the Roman Empire and it still works like new. Is this HC 110 anything like that?

Based on my experience, if the syrup is still yellow to light tan, it'll work. If it sits long enough in a permeable enough container, it'll start to gradate into browns; I've never tried to use HC-110 that was in that condition. I've got an unopened "silvery plastic" bottle of the Kodak syrup and several decanted small bottles of the old pre-2019 syrup -- which are still light yellow despite spending several years in a shed without climate control (summer temps above 100F, winter as low as 0F on several occasions). Those I trust.

 

[runswithsizzers]

I made this little table comparing three of the HC-110 varients. I know there are others, but these are the three I would be considering. BTW I think B&H might still have some of the syrupy Kodak HC-110 from 2019 available? But my table includes only the current, thinner version from PSI (Photo Systems, Inc).

I could not find any downloadable PDF data sheet documents for ADOX HC-110 or Kodak Professional High Concentrate. However, I'm sure those products come with some kind of instructions and (hopefully) some recommended times for some selected films. If anyone knows where the maufacturer's product instructions can be viewed online, I would love to look at them.

 

[brbo]

Based on my experience, if the syrup is still yellow to light tan, it'll work. If it sits long enough in a permeable enough container, it'll start to gradate into browns; I've never tried to use HC-110 that was in that condition.

My half-full bottle of syrupy HC-110 stored at room temp (20-28°C) is now about 15 years old. Seems to works the same as on day one. It's definitely not light in colour.

 

[Alex Benjamin]

I could not find any downloadable PDF data sheet documents for ADOX HC-110 or Kodak Professional High Concentrate. However, I'm sure those products come with some kind of instructions and (hopefully) some recommended times for some selected films.

Only information available regarding development times for Adox HC-110 Professional is on the bottle.

What's strange is that their HC-110 is not part of their listed developers on their website.