The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

[DREW WILEY]

I have TRIPLA on three different enlargers. A LAFAN is an old less than ideal way to cool the head; I've never had anything that marginally effective, just more serious. Want to get into convoluted all CAPS labeling? Try to figure out all their pin registered carrier components, of which I own a distinct variety.

I trigger my enlargers with my own timers. The first thing I potentially do with an old Durst colorhead is to toss the temperamental power supply and rewire the head for straight line voltage (I have both 115 and 230 in my darkroom building).

 

[dcy]

Did you buy a $500 half frame camera? Or did it come flying into your home through an open window?

I did not wake up one day and decide to spend $500 on a camera without knowing anything about it. I've had cameras for many years and I know what they do. The $500 Pentax 17 was the 10th camera I bought in recent years, the 7th film camera, the fourth 35 mm film camera, and the second half-frame camera. I also bought it brand new with a warranty from a major manufacturer, and had plenty of reviews on that specific product.

Can you seriously not see how that is not exactly the same as buying an enlarger from Craigslist that may or may not even even work, for an activity that you've never even attempted before and don't know if you'll enjoy?

What's the point of even asking what barriers exist if you're just going to dismiss them with "well, if you were interested enough you'd overcome them". If you are comfortable dismissing people who say they don't have space with by saying "a convenient way to end a conversation", why can't you see that saying "If you wanted it badly enough, you'd overcome the hurdles" is an equally convenient way to dismiss anything.

If you are not interested in what barriers exist, that's fine, but why engage then?

Also, for clarity's sake - this is as far as I'm concerned not about you, personally. The point I made is that if people want to do darkroom printing, they generally can overcome the hurdles.

Suppose one says "If you don't have enough space, you can buy a bigger house, or rent office space. You can get a second job to pay for it."

It's not helpful to just say that with sufficient effort any obstacle can be overcome. The most generous thing one can say about that is that, at best, it only applies to people who have already done it and can judge what they think of darkroom printing.

Darkroom printing is a dying hobby. Barriers are real. Hobbies only stay alive if new people enter the hobby, and by definition, that has to be people who do not currently have experience to judge whether the hobby is worth effort. Dismissing barriers with a "well, if you wanted it enough you'd overcome the barriers" is a hobby killer.

 

[dcy]

Set your goals a bit lower at the beginning.

Certainly. That's the approach that I've taken. My first film camera was very cheap. My first scanning setup was very cheap. My first enlarger was very cheap. Experience with them slowly led to incremental upgrades, so each individual step had a reasonable risk/return balance.

 

[dcy]

Didn't you say you lived in Las Cruces....a city of over 100,000? You're 4 hrs from Santa Fe. If you want something for nothing....it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

Yes, I live in Las Cruces. I don't literally want something for nothing. I was just responding to one particular comment that said that some people have had the fortune of being near someone offering an enlarger for nothing. I was not trying to say that that's where I set the bar.

$300-500 for a MF Camera or enlarger isn't a big risk.... but no one will knock on your door.

I guess it depends on what money means to you. I cannot remember ever spending $500 on something that I didn't feel confident I knew would function and that I would in fact use them. I spent $500 on my film camera and $1,000 on my digital camera. In each of those cases, I had a pretty good idea what I was buying, I had warranties, and previous experience.

A similar example would be if I used a community darkroom with a suitable enlarger and gained experience with that. Or if I had used an enlarger in school. In my case, 18 months ago I had not even heard of an enlarger. Knowing what you're getting into is a big part of judging whether $500 is a lot of money or not. Since I was talking about barriers to entry, that means I'm talking about people who are not already deep into the hobby.

 

[dcy]

I've been offered at least 30 high-end professional enlargers for free over the past 20 years. I don't have space for more than 4 or 5 enlarging stations, so accepted only one such offer, a fully equipped Durst 184 10X10 unit with colorhead,
which cost around $27,000 back when new in the 70's. I put a few hundred dollars, and one month of weekends, into refurbishing it to 95% new cosmetically, and 100% functionally, including a new bellows.

Evidently, you have too much knowledge and experience for be a good model for whether enlargers you can buy used today form a significant barrier to entry for newcomers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Everyone was an entry-level newcomer on a limited budget at some point, including me! I started out loading and developing film in the furnace closet, and printing in a bedroom with a blacked out window, and developing the paper in a bathroom. Only later did I build a much nicer, better-equipped darkroom.

But one thing I regret is underestimating my enlarger needs. I started out with a just OK 6x7 color enlarger, and within a year realized that if I was going to get serious, I needed something more solid with bigger film and printing size capacity. What I'm getting at, is that in this day and age, used commercial quality enlargers are often just as affordable as little toy ones, or funky old antique versions. And if the "cost" is free, why settle for less, just as long as it fits in the space you intend to set aside? Yeah, you might need to pick it up somewhere; nobody is going to ship it for free. But bargains and freebees do show up. And if you have a knack for fixing things, with decent shop skills, there are even more opportunities.

I feel the same way about cameras. Just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they have to get around on a scooter; nor does it mean they need a Rolls Royce. But you want something dependable enough to keep you going for awhile. Flimsy equipment is apt to be frustrating, and become a discouragement.

 

[GregY]

Yes, I live in Las Cruces. I don't literally want something for nothing. I was just responding to one particular comment that said that some people have had the fortune of being near someone offering an enlarger for nothing. I was not trying to say that that's where I set the bar.



I guess it depends on what money means to you. I cannot remember ever spending $500 on something that I didn't feel confident I knew would function and that I would in fact use them. I spent $500 on my film camera and $1,000 on my digital camera. In each of those cases, I had a pretty good idea what I was buying, I had warranties, and previous experience.

A similar example would be if I used a community darkroom with a suitable enlarger and gained experience with that. Or if I had used an enlarger in school. In my case, 18 months ago I had not even heard of an enlarger. Knowing what you're getting into is a big part of judging whether $500 is a lot of money or not. Since I was talking about barriers to entry, that means I'm talking about people who are not already deep into the hobby.

D, in this day & age and some time, you could inform yourself (via internet....or library) about bigger enlargers. When i got my Beseler 4x5 MXT, i'd seen a picture of one in a magazine. It was that or take the word of a store employee....
It's a simple machine and a lot less risky than buying a used car.

 

[dcy]

FWIW, if @dcy was local, and wanted a working enlarger that could handle medium format and half frame 35mm, I would have quickly made that happen.
There are pockets of people around who have excess stock, who would be happy to either give him one - likely - or sell him one at a favorable price.
There actually may be a bigger barrier - @dcy 's understandable desire to buy new.
I once bought a new enlarger - in the 1970s. I actually sold that enlarger recently. All the others were bought used.
This really highlights what is a more important issue - @dcy and others probably are in more need of in-person, on-hand support from real people with some real experience and knowledge. As wonderful and useful as the internet is, it doesn't replace the benefit of on-hand experience.

Exactly. There's a huge difference between buying a used enlarger from a friend in your town who says they use it and it's in great working condition and will show you how to set it up, and buying an enlarger that someone inherited and you're trying to judge based on online photos if it looks like it's in OK condition.

When I got my enlarger, it came in a broken box with the column sticking out to one side and I couldn't get the pieces to fit. Eventually, with a fair amount of force, I was able to put it together. But for a while I really wasn't sure I'd make it work.

In addition, experience leads to ease of use - you figure out good work-arounds.

Experience makes a world of a difference. The barrier to entry is not exactly about cost, but the balance of risk vs cost.

In case you haven't looked at it, this STICKY thread about various creative solutions for the temporary darkroom challenge may be useful: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bathroom-and-other-temporary-makeshift-darkrooms.35581/

Thanks!

 

[dcy]

But one thing I regret is underestimating my enlarger needs. I started out with a just OK 6x7 color enlarger, and within a year realized that if I was going to get serious, I needed something more solid with bigger film and printing size capacity.

That is more or less the position I find myself in right now. A while ago I spent some time looking at affordable vintage MF cameras and I thought perhaps I'd give the format a try. Then I realized "what am I going to do with the negatives?". I have no way to print them.

Yeah, you might need to pick it up somewhere; nobody is going to ship it for free.

If I remember correctly, when I got my enlarger, almost half of the cost was just shipping.

 

[warden]

If I remember correctly, when I got my enlarger, almost half of the cost was just shipping.

Yeah, local is the way to go if you have the patience to wait for it due to weight alone. I bought my Beseler 23C from a local photographer who retired and wanted to be rid of his gear. I bought the enlarger (IIRC it was less than $100 in 2009) and picked it up at his house. It was advertised as having no lens, but after we chatted a while he handed over a box of lenses and lots of accessories for no extra charge. I think he was waiting to see if the gear was going to a good home and decided it was.