Which can easily be solved. This is not to criticize you in any way; I think it's just a great example of what's going on. If you would badly want to darkroom print your photos, you'd overcome the hurdles. The reality is that many people just don't want this particularly badly, and/or the alternatives (e.g. something digital) don't leave them wanting for much else. That might be a pity for those in the business of manufacturing darkroom paper, but from the perspective of the photographers involved, I think it's all perfectly reasonable.
The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...
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Which can easily be solved. This is not to criticize you in any way; I think it's just a great example of what's going on. If you would badly want to darkroom print your photos, you'd overcome the hurdles. The reality is that many people just don't want this particularly badly, and/or the alternatives (e.g. something digital) don't leave them wanting for much else. That might be a pity for those in the business of manufacturing darkroom paper, but from the perspective of the photographers involved, I think it's all perfectly reasonable.
I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head. I love making darkroom prints, but thanks to digital alternatives I don't *need* to if I want to share my photos with friends and family.
Oh well, I've seen many times people here on photrio threw off their top notch enlargers and other darkroom equipment for the price of a coke or just for free, given you pick it up yourself.
Here in Russia if you want a decent Durst or Kaiser enlarger get ready to pay 350-500 USD and still you will have to wait when it will be available for purchase. Nice Meopta enlarger might be found for much less though being a scarce thing too.
Not long ago a friend of mine equipped his lab and later made it available for rent by others. Another friend is about to finish organizing his permanent darkroom in a rented space. Both these places sport nice MF and LF gear, workspace to handle 16x20 paper etc. I know quite a lot of other community darkrooms in Moscow not counting few commercial ones. I have a dedicated tiny permanent darkroom at home too.
But heck, Moscow is the biggest city in Europe, so we're having quite a lot of everything here.
And it should be considered that despite we're banned from legal direct import of darkroom paper and film, there are ways to get what you want from countries willing to trade and prices are still quite reasonable.
That sure sounds critical to me. "If you wanted it badly enough, you'd overcome the hurdles"?
Seriously?
Don't you think that's more than a little dismissive? Is there any hurdle I could name for which you couldn't just brush it aside and say that if I wanted it badly enough I'd overcome it?
When others raised the issue of limited space, you dismissed it as "a convenient way to end a conversation". I presented you with a different, concrete hurdle, measured in dollars and cents, and you conveniently that if I wanted it badly enough I'd overcome it.
You also said it can easily be solved. Well, I am not aware of a way to solve lack of enlarger and medium format camera that doesn't involve a combination of significant financial cost and/or risk that I won't be able to get the enlarger working.
This works if you are within driving distance. If anyone in the Las Cruces area wants to give me an enlarger that can enlarge medium format and I can put in my car, for the price of a coke, I will go pick it up.
That is a pretty significant cost. I think it's a good example that the hurdle if getting an enlarger is real. Presumably when you got your enlarger, you already knew what the process is like and that you would enjoy using it.
Few people would spend $350-$500 on something they've never tried before just to see if they like it. The hurdle is quite real.
I live in a relatively remote area. If I lived in a big city, there would surely be more options for me.
Holy cow @dcy, YES, if you WANT to darkroom print MF negatives, then you'll have to get yourself an enlarger, and YES that's feasible and YES it may cost you a couple hundred $$$ and several hours of your time to get it, install it and make some space for it! That's how hobbies work - people invest time and money because they like doing it, whatever 'it' is. If they don't like it, they don't bother. You don't bother, so apparently you don't want this badly enough. Did you buy a $500 half frame camera? Or did it come flying into your home through an open window? It's the same with just about everything. That's not a critical thing to say, it's bleeding obvious common sense!!
Also, for clarity's sake - this is as far as I'm concerned not about you, personally. The point I made is that if people want to do darkroom printing, they generally can overcome the hurdles. Fact of the matter is that they just don't really want to put in the time, effort and money, so it doesn't happen. That's why the Harmans of this world don't make a whole lot of money on paper, and that's not really going to change. Whether or not you or anyone else goes through the motions to get their darkroom printing show on the road - well, kudos if they do, but totally fine IMO if they choose not to.
Also, for clarity's sake - this is as far as I'm concerned not about you, personally. The point I made is that if people want to do darkroom printing, they generally can overcome the hurdles. Fact of the matter is that they just don't really want to put in the time, effort and money, so it doesn't happen. That's why the Harmans of this world don't make a whole lot of money on paper, and that's not really going to change. Whether or not you or anyone else goes through the motions to get their darkroom printing show on the road - well, kudos if they do, but totally fine IMO if they choose not to.
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In three places I've previously lived in there's been three rooms - bathroom, bedroom, living area / kitchen. If I had been a single man I could have made that work for printing but having a wife adds an extra challenge. I cannot deny her access to a toilet. I distinctly remember a discussion about storing my enlarger in a corner where she felt a house plant may have been more aesthetically pleasing. I can't deny the industrial beauty of an LPL C7700 but she felt a fern may look nicer. My wife also finds the smell of RA4 rather off-putting which makes priting in the bedroom a no-go. In those places I didn't print at all and did projection instead, storing my darkroom equipment in my father's roof until better times.
In one place I squeezed into a cupboard under the stairs having to sit cross-legged on the floor. I learned how to colour print in that tiny space and got many cramps!
Curently I have the luxury of being able to stand next to a desk but only while my son is in school and after I have bribed him:
In one place I squeezed into a cupboard under the stairs having to sit cross-legged on the floor. I learned how to colour print in that tiny space and got many cramps!
Curently I have the luxury of being able to stand next to a desk but only while my son is in school and after I have bribed him:
Telling us about your problems is enough determination to find a solution in my book, exchanging ideas is what forums are for.
Set your goals a bit lower at the beginning. I got my first enlarger for free and it sucked... well actually it leaked. It leaked so much light it was hard to get any decent contrast on a print. I learned a lot nevertheless and it sharpened my skills in mastering such hurdles.
If money is an issue start with a cheap one: 35 mm, condensor. The last Leitz Ic I bought was 15 €! And it worked much better than the one above. Aim at small prints up to max 8x10". Saves space, cost and makes handling easier.
That is basically me. But I wanted to wetprint really bad.
Would I print more if I could easily stand in my dark "room"? Yes! Do I still print when I really want. Yes!
I don't have water in my darkroom and printing MF negatives doesn't require much more than 35mm in the equipment department.
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MattKing
Moderator
FWIW, if @dcy was local, and wanted a working enlarger that could handle medium format and half frame 35mm, I would have quickly made that happen.
There are pockets of people around who have excess stock, who would be happy to either give him one - likely - or sell him one at a favorable price.
There actually may be a bigger barrier - @dcy 's understandable desire to buy new.
I once bought a new enlarger - in the 1970s. I actually sold that enlarger recently. All the others were bought used.
This really highlights what is a more important issue - @dcy and others probably are in more need of in-person, on-hand support from real people with some real experience and knowledge. As wonderful and useful as the internet is, it doesn't replace the benefit of on-hand experience.
The other observation I have about temporary darkrooms - and I do appreciate my access to a moderate sized windowless bathroom, even if set-up and take-down is a pain, not to mention the associated disruption to its normal use - is that the more you do this, the quicker it becomes. In addition, experience leads to ease of use - you figure out good work-arounds.
But if you don't enjoy the benefit of seeing other darkrooms, and other people's solutions to the temporary darkroom challenge, it is hard to know where to start.
Which in turn brings us back to the subject of this thread.
In case you haven't looked at it, this STICKY thread about various creative solutions for the temporary darkroom challenge may be useful: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bathroom-and-other-temporary-makeshift-darkrooms.35581/
There are pockets of people around who have excess stock, who would be happy to either give him one - likely - or sell him one at a favorable price.
There actually may be a bigger barrier - @dcy 's understandable desire to buy new.
I once bought a new enlarger - in the 1970s. I actually sold that enlarger recently. All the others were bought used.
This really highlights what is a more important issue - @dcy and others probably are in more need of in-person, on-hand support from real people with some real experience and knowledge. As wonderful and useful as the internet is, it doesn't replace the benefit of on-hand experience.
The other observation I have about temporary darkrooms - and I do appreciate my access to a moderate sized windowless bathroom, even if set-up and take-down is a pain, not to mention the associated disruption to its normal use - is that the more you do this, the quicker it becomes. In addition, experience leads to ease of use - you figure out good work-arounds.
But if you don't enjoy the benefit of seeing other darkrooms, and other people's solutions to the temporary darkroom challenge, it is hard to know where to start.
Which in turn brings us back to the subject of this thread.
In case you haven't looked at it, this STICKY thread about various creative solutions for the temporary darkroom challenge may be useful: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bathroom-and-other-temporary-makeshift-darkrooms.35581/
I suppose I have one advantage in that I know I would like to make darkroom prints the traditional way because I learned to do so at school and used to use my school darkroom after hours. That is something most teenagers won't get these days.
I further learned to make contact sheets at home as a kid, sitting in the bottom of my parents' wardrobe which could be made light tight....dev and fixer in roasting dishes....opening the door for 15 seconds to expose the paper with negatives held in place by a sheet of glass. Current living situation doesn't even involve a wardrobe or cupboard under the stairs! But, as I've said, that should change in the next 12-18 months.
Regardless of space, which really is an issue for young people (I knew few people under 30 who even have a flat to themselves) the point made above is pertinent. I knew I liked making prints because I had the chance to try. Today's kids probably aren't getting that, and spending money on even second hand gear is a risk. That said, Ilford seem to be seeing an increase in darkroom paper sales which is encouraging. Equally, I shoot as much B&W film as I do because I can scan it easily.
Ilford used to have a "find a local darkroom" part of their website but it seems to have disappeared.
I further learned to make contact sheets at home as a kid, sitting in the bottom of my parents' wardrobe which could be made light tight....dev and fixer in roasting dishes....opening the door for 15 seconds to expose the paper with negatives held in place by a sheet of glass. Current living situation doesn't even involve a wardrobe or cupboard under the stairs! But, as I've said, that should change in the next 12-18 months.
Regardless of space, which really is an issue for young people (I knew few people under 30 who even have a flat to themselves) the point made above is pertinent. I knew I liked making prints because I had the chance to try. Today's kids probably aren't getting that, and spending money on even second hand gear is a risk. That said, Ilford seem to be seeing an increase in darkroom paper sales which is encouraging. Equally, I shoot as much B&W film as I do because I can scan it easily.
Ilford used to have a "find a local darkroom" part of their website but it seems to have disappeared.
I tend to think about this, as I am helping in a local camera club with a fully equipped darkroom. We did have a super excited teen visiting and seeing the process, who immediately signed up. However, haven't seen him around. Perhaps when some rolls are shot and need some support with it.
Like to mentor and help out myself, but I am not seeing a very high level of commitment. Young people wise, it's that there are less around due to I guess the way socialising is done nowadays. Other ages it's mostly intermittent periods of printing.
And at northern latitudes, it's easy to be prone to just shoot under the light and warm months and then darkroom print in winter.
Someone mentioned the digital workflow being good enough. A lot of people Develop, but that number appears to decrease when it comes to darkroom printing. Even I do try to lobby people into it, mostly mentioning time, knowledge and material reasons not to. Heck, we even have had good amounts of surplus free paper.
On the other hand, in my case, the space is solved though this community set up, otherwise it'd be a challenge as how I am living (small) apartment. All bathrooms are windowless, and I could have an enlarger over the washing machine. About enlargers, I am surprised how every now and then someone contacts the club wanting to drop equipment. Even very sad, last year there was a school that got rid of 6 enlargers... THough then we had gotten some paper as well.
I'll give a thought to acquire one medium format capable enlarger if another opportunity arises, specially if it's a very good deal.
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My own darkroom printing journey started at a community darkroom in San Francisco over an hour away from my home. I used to drive up there once or twice a week, sometimes enduring terrible traffic into the city, in order to make prints. I fell in love with the process and the results, but grew weary of the drive.
I was determined to setup a darkroom at home even though I really didn't have an appropriate place to do it. I went through various iterations in different rooms in my house, each with their own set of difficulties. After years of struggling to make things work, I eventually ended up with my enlarger permanently setup in a windowless walk-in closet in our master bedroom, which is adjacent to the master bathroom. Shockingly, this was actually my wife's idea! I use the bathroom as a wet space whenever I want to print or develop film. Since I now use print drums instead of open trays, setup time in the bathroom is actually pretty short as there's no need to black it out - thankfully, since there's a large skylight in the ceiling. This is the best arrangement I've had to date and it makes setup/teardown reasonably fast.
I guess the point of this story is, if you want to make darkroom prints at home, you'll find a way. It may take some time and effort to figure out an arrangement that works in your particular situation, but there's almost always a workable solution.
I was determined to setup a darkroom at home even though I really didn't have an appropriate place to do it. I went through various iterations in different rooms in my house, each with their own set of difficulties. After years of struggling to make things work, I eventually ended up with my enlarger permanently setup in a windowless walk-in closet in our master bedroom, which is adjacent to the master bathroom. Shockingly, this was actually my wife's idea! I use the bathroom as a wet space whenever I want to print or develop film. Since I now use print drums instead of open trays, setup time in the bathroom is actually pretty short as there's no need to black it out - thankfully, since there's a large skylight in the ceiling. This is the best arrangement I've had to date and it makes setup/teardown reasonably fast.
I guess the point of this story is, if you want to make darkroom prints at home, you'll find a way. It may take some time and effort to figure out an arrangement that works in your particular situation, but there's almost always a workable solution.
Didn't you say you lived in Las Cruces....a city of over 100,000? You're 4 hrs from Santa Fe. If you want something for nothing....it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time.
$300-500 for a MF Camera or enlarger isn't a big risk.... but no one will knock on your door.
It took me several years to find a large drymount press.... The price was $100 or it was going to the dump next week. Grand Junction is 1200 mi from my home...... but by luck i was visiting in New Mexico & picked it up on my way home.
There are enlargers for not much money. After a long wait i got my Durst 138 for $500.... (they were $10,000 new!)
Call Camera & Darkroom in Santa Fe & Albuquerque & if they don't have an enlarger....leave your # in case one comes in.....
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I have to say, the reason why I have a B&W enlarger, safelight, variety of trays, plug-in computerised timer (for the enlarger) and a print dryer are because I was very patient. I saw the enlarger and trays on sale at my local camera shop about 20 years ago when everyone was getting rid of them...bargain...the rest, I bided my time on eBay until they came around at a price I was willing to pay. Through friends and a charity shop I've obtained a further two film developing tanks...and again biding my time I've got the 30 foot and 2x50 foot Lomo tanks for cine film. Now all I need is a suitable space with electricity and preferably at least a cold tap. Theoretically I'm ready to go and able to develop up to 8 rolls of 135 at a time, or 5 120/220.
Developing and scanning at home is easy as I just use a dark bag for loading film. I can do 110, 135, 120, 220, 127, 8mm and super 8. I only do B&W for now and usually use Ilford or Kentmere film and Ilford developer. I'm small beans in the grand scheme of things but I do pass a fair bit of money Harman's way every year, year after year. I'd use some Kodak Tri-X if the price was frankly ludicrous here.
Developing and scanning at home is easy as I just use a dark bag for loading film. I can do 110, 135, 120, 220, 127, 8mm and super 8. I only do B&W for now and usually use Ilford or Kentmere film and Ilford developer. I'm small beans in the grand scheme of things but I do pass a fair bit of money Harman's way every year, year after year. I'd use some Kodak Tri-X if the price was frankly ludicrous here.
Alaris adjusted their BW film pricing quite a while ago to be less ridiculous.
I know everybody is different, but a difference of £1 is not something that would force me to shoot HP5+ if Tri-X was my favourite film.
I bulk roll my B&W film and Kodak is simply not an option. I know they have their reasons and their bulk roll production is very labour intensive, with no real incentive to modernise as the sales are low, but it cuts me out of the market.
Have enlarger prices skyrocketed? Genuine question.
I got my Durst M670 long, long ago, and while not being a top of the line model, it is more or less everything I want on an enlarger, i stopped looking for other enlargers on the market, thus, i have no clue on the current prices.
I think they have increased over the past few years, yes. The spread is pretty large though; it still ranges from 'free to pick up' to 'pretty darn expensive for what it is'.
I don't know the answer, but I see many enlargers for sale on my local Craigslist with silly-high asking prices that sit unsold for months/years. So it might appear that prices have skyrocketed based on asking prices but, in reality, I don't think they really have.
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I've been offered at least 30 high-end professional enlargers for free over the past 20 years. I don't have space for more than 4 or 5 enlarging stations, so accepted only one such offer, a fully equipped Durst 184 10X10 unit with colorhead,
which cost around $27,000 back when new in the 70's. I put a few hundred dollars, and one month of weekends, into refurbishing it to 95% new cosmetically, and 100% functionally, including a new bellows.
which cost around $27,000 back when new in the 70's. I put a few hundred dollars, and one month of weekends, into refurbishing it to 95% new cosmetically, and 100% functionally, including a new bellows.
Enlarger prices in the UK have definitely increased. I picked up a Durst M305 with six trays (3 each of two different sizes) for £50. All second hand but from a camera shop and with a guarantee. They threw in some large Kentmere paper too. I know we've had some inflation but the going rate for a Durst M305 these days alone without the trays or paper is around £150.
So I guess there is an increase in interest, or perhaps fewer in supply? I got mine at a time when lots of people were "upgrading" to digital and getting rid of darkroom equipment. Supply exceeded demand. Safe lights seem to have reduced in asking price, after peaking a few years ago. That could be because mobile apps can mimic any colour well enough to work from a distance.
Currently I have a similar issue to @perkeleellinen above. I share my small home with my wife, who is not against me developing film or making prints but doesn't want it to inconvenience her. There is no cupboard under the stairs because there are no stairs. No attic. No shed because while there's a garden, the landlord won't permit a shed to be erected. There's a garage but it is a couple of minutes walk away and has no electricity....nor is it fully water tight! And understandably, spousal unit has her own crafting equipment which needs to be stored. Something has to give. And currently it's half my record collection, my vintage reel to reel VTR and my enlarger and associated equipment.
So I guess there is an increase in interest, or perhaps fewer in supply? I got mine at a time when lots of people were "upgrading" to digital and getting rid of darkroom equipment. Supply exceeded demand. Safe lights seem to have reduced in asking price, after peaking a few years ago. That could be because mobile apps can mimic any colour well enough to work from a distance.
Currently I have a similar issue to @perkeleellinen above. I share my small home with my wife, who is not against me developing film or making prints but doesn't want it to inconvenience her. There is no cupboard under the stairs because there are no stairs. No attic. No shed because while there's a garden, the landlord won't permit a shed to be erected. There's a garage but it is a couple of minutes walk away and has no electricity....nor is it fully water tight! And understandably, spousal unit has her own crafting equipment which needs to be stored. Something has to give. And currently it's half my record collection, my vintage reel to reel VTR and my enlarger and associated equipment.
My M670 Color is more or less a 6x7 version of your 305.
It has everything I need, really, I can use B&W varicontrast papers by dialing in the correct color filtration on the head, the negative holder is easy to use, it is easy to focus, it looks nice, the lens holder can be interchanged (interestingly it seems there are two different incompatible M39 mounts, one with a different thread, and I have the two different holders, and only one of them mounts my Durst Componon 105mm).
And it's a diffusion head. I prefer diffusion enlargers.
Results are impressively sharp, so the machine will stay with me, probably forever. I love you, Durst!!
WOW!!
It seems we can establish a Durst users club here...
Let's call it "the silly n-letters code club"... Drew, do you have the SANAT? what about a SAFIL? or another FILCA? wanna attach a TRIPLA ? What about a WAHAL with a LAFAN to reduce heat? Do you trigger your enlarger with a COLTIM?
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