The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford...

[DREW WILEY]

I have TRIPLA on three different enlargers. A LAFAN is an old less than ideal way to cool the head; I've never had anything that marginally effective, just more serious. Want to get into convoluted all CAPS labeling? Try to figure out all their pin registered carrier components, of which I own a distinct variety.

I trigger my enlargers with my own timers. The first thing I potentially do with an old Durst colorhead is to toss the temperamental power supply and rewire the head for straight line voltage (I have both 115 and 230 in my darkroom building).

 

[dcy]

Did you buy a $500 half frame camera? Or did it come flying into your home through an open window?

I did not wake up one day and decide to spend $500 on a camera without knowing anything about it. I've had cameras for many years and I know what they do. The $500 Pentax 17 was the 10th camera I bought in recent years, the 7th film camera, the fourth 35 mm film camera, and the second half-frame camera. I also bought it brand new with a warranty from a major manufacturer, and had plenty of reviews on that specific product.

Can you seriously not see how that is not exactly the same as buying an enlarger from Craigslist that may or may not even even work, for an activity that you've never even attempted before and don't know if you'll enjoy?

What's the point of even asking what barriers exist if you're just going to dismiss them with "well, if you were interested enough you'd overcome them". If you are comfortable dismissing people who say they don't have space with by saying "a convenient way to end a conversation", why can't you see that saying "If you wanted it badly enough, you'd overcome the hurdles" is an equally convenient way to dismiss anything.

If you are not interested in what barriers exist, that's fine, but why engage then?

Also, for clarity's sake - this is as far as I'm concerned not about you, personally. The point I made is that if people want to do darkroom printing, they generally can overcome the hurdles.

Suppose one says "If you don't have enough space, you can buy a bigger house, or rent office space. You can get a second job to pay for it."

It's not helpful to just say that with sufficient effort any obstacle can be overcome. The most generous thing one can say about that is that, at best, it only applies to people who have already done it and can judge what they think of darkroom printing.

Darkroom printing is a dying hobby. Barriers are real. Hobbies only stay alive if new people enter the hobby, and by definition, that has to be people who do not currently have experience to judge whether the hobby is worth effort. Dismissing barriers with a "well, if you wanted it enough you'd overcome the barriers" is a hobby killer.

 

[dcy]

Set your goals a bit lower at the beginning.

Certainly. That's the approach that I've taken. My first film camera was very cheap. My first scanning setup was very cheap. My first enlarger was very cheap. Experience with them slowly led to incremental upgrades, so each individual step had a reasonable risk/return balance.

 

[dcy]

Didn't you say you lived in Las Cruces....a city of over 100,000? You're 4 hrs from Santa Fe. If you want something for nothing....it's a matter of being in the right place at the right time.

Yes, I live in Las Cruces. I don't literally want something for nothing. I was just responding to one particular comment that said that some people have had the fortune of being near someone offering an enlarger for nothing. I was not trying to say that that's where I set the bar.

$300-500 for a MF Camera or enlarger isn't a big risk.... but no one will knock on your door.

I guess it depends on what money means to you. I cannot remember ever spending $500 on something that I didn't feel confident I knew would function and that I would in fact use them. I spent $500 on my film camera and $1,000 on my digital camera. In each of those cases, I had a pretty good idea what I was buying, I had warranties, and previous experience.

A similar example would be if I used a community darkroom with a suitable enlarger and gained experience with that. Or if I had used an enlarger in school. In my case, 18 months ago I had not even heard of an enlarger. Knowing what you're getting into is a big part of judging whether $500 is a lot of money or not. Since I was talking about barriers to entry, that means I'm talking about people who are not already deep into the hobby.

 

[dcy]

I've been offered at least 30 high-end professional enlargers for free over the past 20 years. I don't have space for more than 4 or 5 enlarging stations, so accepted only one such offer, a fully equipped Durst 184 10X10 unit with colorhead,
which cost around $27,000 back when new in the 70's. I put a few hundred dollars, and one month of weekends, into refurbishing it to 95% new cosmetically, and 100% functionally, including a new bellows.

Evidently, you have too much knowledge and experience for be a good model for whether enlargers you can buy used today form a significant barrier to entry for newcomers.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Everyone was an entry-level newcomer on a limited budget at some point, including me! I started out loading and developing film in the furnace closet, and printing in a bedroom with a blacked out window, and developing the paper in a bathroom. Only later did I build a much nicer, better-equipped darkroom.

But one thing I regret is underestimating my enlarger needs. I started out with a just OK 6x7 color enlarger, and within a year realized that if I was going to get serious, I needed something more solid with bigger film and printing size capacity. What I'm getting at, is that in this day and age, used commercial quality enlargers are often just as affordable as little toy ones, or funky old antique versions. And if the "cost" is free, why settle for less, just as long as it fits in the space you intend to set aside? Yeah, you might need to pick it up somewhere; nobody is going to ship it for free. But bargains and freebees do show up. And if you have a knack for fixing things, with decent shop skills, there are even more opportunities.

I feel the same way about cameras. Just because someone is a beginner doesn't mean they have to get around on a scooter; nor does it mean they need a Rolls Royce. But you want something dependable enough to keep you going for awhile. Flimsy equipment is apt to be frustrating, and become a discouragement.

 

[GregY]

Yes, I live in Las Cruces. I don't literally want something for nothing. I was just responding to one particular comment that said that some people have had the fortune of being near someone offering an enlarger for nothing. I was not trying to say that that's where I set the bar.



I guess it depends on what money means to you. I cannot remember ever spending $500 on something that I didn't feel confident I knew would function and that I would in fact use them. I spent $500 on my film camera and $1,000 on my digital camera. In each of those cases, I had a pretty good idea what I was buying, I had warranties, and previous experience.

A similar example would be if I used a community darkroom with a suitable enlarger and gained experience with that. Or if I had used an enlarger in school. In my case, 18 months ago I had not even heard of an enlarger. Knowing what you're getting into is a big part of judging whether $500 is a lot of money or not. Since I was talking about barriers to entry, that means I'm talking about people who are not already deep into the hobby.

D, in this day & age and some time, you could inform yourself (via internet....or library) about bigger enlargers. When i got my Beseler 4x5 MXT, i'd seen a picture of one in a magazine. It was that or take the word of a store employee....
It's a simple machine and a lot less risky than buying a used car.

 

[dcy]

FWIW, if @dcy was local, and wanted a working enlarger that could handle medium format and half frame 35mm, I would have quickly made that happen.
There are pockets of people around who have excess stock, who would be happy to either give him one - likely - or sell him one at a favorable price.
There actually may be a bigger barrier - @dcy 's understandable desire to buy new.
I once bought a new enlarger - in the 1970s. I actually sold that enlarger recently. All the others were bought used.
This really highlights what is a more important issue - @dcy and others probably are in more need of in-person, on-hand support from real people with some real experience and knowledge. As wonderful and useful as the internet is, it doesn't replace the benefit of on-hand experience.

Exactly. There's a huge difference between buying a used enlarger from a friend in your town who says they use it and it's in great working condition and will show you how to set it up, and buying an enlarger that someone inherited and you're trying to judge based on online photos if it looks like it's in OK condition.

When I got my enlarger, it came in a broken box with the column sticking out to one side and I couldn't get the pieces to fit. Eventually, with a fair amount of force, I was able to put it together. But for a while I really wasn't sure I'd make it work.

In addition, experience leads to ease of use - you figure out good work-arounds.

Experience makes a world of a difference. The barrier to entry is not exactly about cost, but the balance of risk vs cost.

In case you haven't looked at it, this STICKY thread about various creative solutions for the temporary darkroom challenge may be useful: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/bathroom-and-other-temporary-makeshift-darkrooms.35581/

Thanks!

 

[dcy]

But one thing I regret is underestimating my enlarger needs. I started out with a just OK 6x7 color enlarger, and within a year realized that if I was going to get serious, I needed something more solid with bigger film and printing size capacity.

That is more or less the position I find myself in right now. A while ago I spent some time looking at affordable vintage MF cameras and I thought perhaps I'd give the format a try. Then I realized "what am I going to do with the negatives?". I have no way to print them.

Yeah, you might need to pick it up somewhere; nobody is going to ship it for free.

If I remember correctly, when I got my enlarger, almost half of the cost was just shipping.

 

[warden]

If I remember correctly, when I got my enlarger, almost half of the cost was just shipping.

Yeah, local is the way to go if you have the patience to wait for it due to weight alone. I bought my Beseler 23C from a local photographer who retired and wanted to be rid of his gear. I bought the enlarger (IIRC it was less than $100 in 2009) and picked it up at his house. It was advertised as having no lens, but after we chatted a while he handed over a box of lenses and lots of accessories for no extra charge. I think he was waiting to see if the gear was going to a good home and decided it was.

 

[mshchem]

Cheap is when you want rid of something

Expensive is when you want something

 

[koraks]

Darkroom printing is a dying hobby. Barriers are real.

Yes, barriers are real.

Let me tell you an anecdote.

Not so long ago, I spent some time with people in a local community center here. They had a photo club going on with a decent number (10+ or so) of people shooting film. I asked if there was any interest in color - sure enough, there was. So, would these people perhaps entertain the idea of also printing their color work? OH WOW! IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE!!! So we went through the whole routine of "but aren't we going to die because of the fumes", "it's too difficult", "the materials and equipment don't exist anymore" etc. etc. To cut a long story short, I agreed with them that if they would assign a suitable space and a couple of people who would start to learn printing, I would make sure the equipment and materials would magically arrive at their doorstep. We walked through their facility and located a virtually unused space, no windows, with running water and power, easy to darken - in other words, perfect for a darkroom; it required virtually no modification (literally: unscrew one light bulb). Having made our agreement, I went cracking and drummed up what would be needed; some kind people donated an enlarger, timers, trays; we got Fuji to commit to sponsoring at least an initial batch of paper and chemistry.

Everything arranged for them, for FREE, no cash out of pocket, and I would teach them how to print color. All they had to do, was to show up.
I'm still waiting for the call.
All barriers removed from them, ironed out.

People 'want' something until they hit upon a barrier. It'll be space, equipment, chemistry, concerns about safety, knowledge - and if you get down to it, it's mustering up the energy to show up. It's always something.

Here's another story. Or actually, several - there's a group of people I loosely associate with; our shared interest is in analog color printing. Take this one young artist. She is perpetually strapped for cash, has basically no home (moving from one room to another) - but she wants to print (color, alt. process; anything she can get her hands on, really). And despite having none of the means to be able to do so, every time I talk to her she has somehow arranged a space, some people to drag that big old roller transport processor of hers into, and she's churning out new work. She has barriers in spades - yet, she gets the f*** job done. The rest of that group are similar. You won't find them on forums complaining about barriers. They run into problems and work to solve them, because they want to print.

The reason why I started about the willingness in the first place is because in this discussion, several people have brought up practical barriers that supposedly keep people from printing. If I look at those who do somehow make it, I recognize that they have run into ALL of those barriers, AND MORE, and worked their way around them. There's apparently a secret sauce involved, and my hypothesis is that's a combination of good old MOTIVATION and a healthy dose of GET UP AND GO. If I look at those who perpetually talk about how nice it would be to print their work, but somehow never get round to it, the main determinant is a lack of exactly those things. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but truth hurts, sometimes.

As to your barrier of not having the right enlarger - the situation isn't going to resolve itself by talking about it. You know this, of course. So you read up as well as you can, then make the best call you think you can, and you take it from there. Turns out that enlargers are fairly simple machines, so even if you get one with a minor defect, it'll be fixable. Don't sweat it. Just go and get the job done, if this is what you want.

PS: these anecdotes/examples are just that - examples. I could fill an evening with similar stories and the bottom line is always that the main people don't start wet printing their work is that they just can't be bothered to. I don't blame them for it, but neither am I going to sugarcoat it.

 

[skahde]

In Germany enlargers with a diffuse light-source, capable of 6x9 and above are still quite expensive and going for the asking-prices although slowly. Anything else: No demand. I decided on a locally available Focomat IIc because their asking-prices are all over the board depending on different factors and I learned they are still rated high if complete but simply don't sell. I took my time, let the frustration grow on the sellers side and could negotiate a price of around 30 % of the first offer. There are too many on offer compared to demand, ads for them are static like pictures in a museum. I saw a Focomat V35 on offer recently which I could have bought with everything in the original packaging 1hr drive away: 180 € asking-price. It was an icon in its day and still is a wonderful machine. Nobody wants it.

 

[Agulliver]

I do think that if I had not been taught the rudiments of enlarging and printing at school, I would not have realised that I enjoy it and am capable of achieving reasonable results. If I had not been armed with that knowledge, I would be a good deal less intent on one day getting a full darkroom set up. Unfortunately darkroom skills are almost viewed as magic by many people who haven't had the opportunity to try. When I tell people that I develop film, including cine film, they look upon me as if I am some wizard. But really, it's easy. I was taught very young and have all the equipment I need stored in one bag in a corner of the living room.

These days fewer people are introduced to developing film and fewer to printing in a darkroom in their younger years. Hell, even I was told the received wisdom that colour developing and printing was some dark art that was incredibly difficult. I went out and bought a book on it many moons ago and have dabbled with developing E6 successfully. So it's not fiendishly difficult - well the developing part. I never did get around to colour printing but I know a few people who have.

Developing film and moreso printing have a reputation for being difficult. I suppose absolutely nailing development and getting gallery quality prints are....but getting results you are proud of, and prints you can hang on your wall or give to family isn't at all hard.

 

[gary mulder]

Here in Holland big enlargers bring in more money as scrap metal than trying to sale them for the intended use.

 

[koraks]

Here in Holland big enlargers bring in more money as scrap metal than trying to sale them for the intended use.

I picked up my Durst 138 around the time the analog 'revival' was just starting to happen. It was listed on a local forum. Nobody seemed to be interested; eventually I jumped the gun and got into the car to pick it up. the kind old fellow tried very hard to get me to also take the other three he had. I didn't budge; one was enough. He ended up taking them to the scrapyard.

I know this guy who tried to find a new owner for a big roller transport processor for color printing. You'd say that someone would have been absolutely thrilled to take it off of his hands. One local artist responded; she was 20 minutes' drive away from where the machine was. She had to ask the landlord she rented her darkroom from if it would be OK to do some minor plumbing to accommodate the machine. She apparently never got round to unlock her phone and send him a text. Major barriers.
Maybe that story sounds familiar to you. It was when hacksaw met Colenta.

 

[skahde]

Yes, barriers are real.

I couldn't have said it better. If you want to get somewhere: Get up and go. Stumbling evolves into walking, transforms into running. Just be consistent and go on.

 

[tykos]

i think i'm the only one who never received a free enlarger. But i won't have a place to put it in, so that's ok, i'm glad there's a community darkroom near me. Hoping it lasts.

 

[GregY]

That is more or less the position I find myself in right now. A while ago I spent some time looking at affordable vintage MF cameras and I thought perhaps I'd give the format a try. Then I realized "what am I going to do with the negatives?". I have no way to print them.



If I remember correctly, when I got my enlarger, almost half of the cost was just shipping.

true of shipping anything big or heavy....

 

[logan2z]

II saw a Focomat V35 on offer recently which I could have bought with everything in the original packaging 1hr drive away: 180 € asking-price. It was an icon in its day and still is a wonderful machine. Nobody wants it.

I just donated mine to someone starting a community darkroom. Even for free it took time to find someone who wanted it.

 

[Lachlan Young]

Durst 138

From my experiences with them, 138's can be trickier to rehome than either bench 4x5's or relatively compact floor standing 4x5's or 8x10's (De Vere 5108) - unless the person in question wants to do mural enlargements on a wall. I'd hesitate to speculate on the exact reasons, but they do suffer from their relative height-to-negative-capacity ratio (as to an extent does the 184 from what I've seen).

a big roller transport processor for color printing

The issue with Colentas (and other bigger RT paper processors) isn't so much the plumbing, it's the need for 16A or 3-phase power - and their sheer mass. Unfortunately they do demonstrate quite clearly why the Printo (and similar) is so sought after at the moment. On the other hand, sometimes working Printo machines turn up for the cost of evicting 10,000 spiders.

 

[koraks]

From my experiences with them, 138's can be trickier to rehome than either bench 4x5's or relatively compact floor standing 4x5's or 8x10's (De Vere 5108)

I suppose, although the 138 head is not as voluminous as the big, black heads of the later Dursts. I consider this an advantage; in my multi-purpose darkroom/home office/hobby space it's not as much of a black hole as many other enlargers this size would have been.

The issue with Colentas (and other bigger RT paper processors) isn't so much the plumbing, it's the need for 16A or 3-phase power - and their sheer mass.

This one ran on a single phase. The dryer could be removed/disconnected to drastically cut back power use. A Printo I've got, as well as a pair of RCP20's, which is one (more) reason I didn't jump on the Colenta myself. Poor W.A.F. was also a concern for a machine this size.

 

[DREW WILEY]

I really enjoyed refurbishing 138's as well as L184'S. I found both very well engineered for sake of long-term maintenance. But things like warped baseboards or worn out bellow should simply be replaced. That's easy enough if one has basic shop skills. Of course, one needs a reasonably high ceiling to install the bigger version.

I turned down a free 50 inch RT processor in excellent condition. I'm sensitive to RA4 chem, and didn't want any of the fumes indoors, so stuck with my portable drum processor instead, which can be used outdoors. If I would have installed it, I would have detached the dryer, significantly lowering the wattage and electrical bill. My shop has plenty of power; that's not an issue. I've never heard of a 3-phase paper processor; that's more a big machinery thing, with big motors. The shop attached to where I worked for many years had 440V 3-phase and 6-ga wiring. Yeah, 6ga, and not 16. The copper thieves would have loved to get ahold of a roll of that - but I would take a forklift to move it !

 

[dcy]

Yes, barriers are real.

Let me tell you an anecdote.

Not so long ago, I spent some time with people in a local community center here. They had a photo club going on with a decent number (10+ or so) of people shooting film. I asked if there was any interest in color - sure enough, there was. So, would these people perhaps entertain the idea of also printing their color work? OH WOW! IS THAT EVEN POSSIBLE!!! So we went through the whole routine of "but aren't we going to die because of the fumes", "it's too difficult", "the materials and equipment don't exist anymore" etc. etc.

Yeah. Two years ago I had no idea that 35 mm film still existed, and I had never heard of an enlarger.

The bit about "die of fumes" made me chuckle. I think I am someone who is more careful than most with chemicals, and I do treat photochemistry with care, but the most dangerous stuff in my home, by far, came from the home improvement center, hot Harman.


The part about equipment not existing is precisely the part that worries me. For a hobby to survive, you can't just have a finite set of ever-fewer ever-aging equipment options. There needs to be new equipment actively manufactured. Today, if you want a brand new 35 mm film camera, as far as I can tell, the options are:

(1) Toy / plastic cameras --- cheap, but sort of hobby-killers --- I did buy one of these.
(2) Pentax 17 --- $500
(3) Rollei 35AF --- $800
(4) Leica --- $6,000+

The situation with enlargers is even worse.

One of the reasons I paid the hefty price for a new camera was that I actively want to chip in to help the hobby survive. Likewise, if I ever do decide to upgrade to an enlarger that can do medium format, I will seriously consider the intrepid enlarger for $345. Quite simply, without new equipment, a hobby is condemned to an entropy death.

To cut a long story short, I agreed with them that if they would assign a suitable space and a couple of people who would start to learn printing, I would make sure the equipment and materials would magically arrive at their doorstep. We walked through their facility and located a virtually unused space, no windows, with running water and power, easy to darken - in other words, perfect for a darkroom; it required virtually no modification (literally: unscrew one light bulb). Having made our agreement, I went cracking and drummed up what would be needed; some kind people donated an enlarger, timers, trays; we got Fuji to commit to sponsoring at least an initial batch of paper and chemistry.

Everything arranged for them, for FREE, no cash out of pocket, and I would teach them how to print color. All they had to do, was to show up.
I'm still waiting for the call.

That is very depressing.

I can see how that experience colors / informs your perception. I don't understand how a group of people would express so much interest and then do nothing.

People 'want' something until they hit upon a barrier. It'll be space, equipment, chemistry, concerns about safety, knowledge - and if you get down to it, it's mustering up the energy to show up. It's always something.

I realize that when you write "it's always something", that's an expression of frustration and not something you probably mean literally. But I think it is worth pointing out that it is not true.

Yes, some people are not interested enough to even show up when all the equipment is there for free. But that's not everyone, and it is not me. I had to overcome a barrier much bigger than just showing up. I actually paid for the stuff that I got, and took a gamble. I actually tried (and failed) to build my own DIY enlarger to at least try to figure out if it'd be something I'd enjoyed. In the end, I had to take a risk and grab the least-broken item I found on eBay for a price I could manage. I would not fault anyone for saying that they don't want to spend a few hundred dollars on 30 year-old equipment to attempt something that they're not sure they'll enjoy. I did that, but I am more impulsive and have more financial safety than many people.

Here's another story. Or actually, several - there's a group of people I loosely associate with; our shared interest is in analog color printing. Take this one young artist. She is perpetually strapped for cash, has basically no home (moving from one room to another) - but she wants to print (color, alt. process; anything she can get her hands on, really). And despite having none of the means to be able to do so, every time I talk to her she has somehow arranged a space, some people to drag that big old roller transport processor of hers into, and she's churning out new work. She has barriers in spades - yet, she gets the f*** job done. The rest of that group are similar.

I am happy for her. But evidently she knows what printing is like and she knows she enjoys it. That matters.

I feel like I'm not getting my message across to you. Can you not see that

(1) you cannot expect people to show dedication and passion for an activity they've never tried,
(2) any newcomer is, by definition, someone who has not yet tried the activity, and
(3) newcomers are necessary for any hobby to have a future

?

You won't find them on forums complaining about barriers. They run into problems and work to solve them, because they want to print.

What's wrong with being in a forum complaining about barriers? The title of the thread is "The Future of Colour and B&W Film with Ilford".

I am telling you that I think the biggest thread to the future of colour and B&W film in general, and darkroom printing in particular, is that for most potential newcomers, the only option seems to be to spend a significant amount of money to compete with an ever smaller pool or ever-aging decades old equipment.


Blaming lack of motivation is nonsensical if the conversation is about the future of the hobby, unless you don't think that acquiring new members is an important part of the future of a hobby.

There's apparently a secret sauce involved, and my hypothesis is that's a combination of good old MOTIVATION and a healthy dose of GET UP AND GO.

At best, that might apply to people who have at least gone through the experience of printing in the darkroom a couple of times.

If I look at those who perpetually talk about how nice it would be to print their work, but somehow never get round to it, the main determinant is a lack of exactly those things. Sorry to be so blunt about it, but truth hurts, sometimes.

This isn't bluntness. This is unwillingness to consider what someone else is saying to you. Sorry to be blunt.

As to your barrier of not having the right enlarger - the situation isn't going to resolve itself by talking about it.

The topic of discussion is not my hypothetical enlarger upgrade. I did not come here to ask for a free enlarger. I came to talk about barrier to entry. You just choose to gloss over the "entry" part of the concept. You're stuck on the idea of how much effort someone puts in to continue with an activity, ignoring the substance of what I've been trying to say to you.

 

[dcy]

I do think that if I had not been taught the rudiments of enlarging and printing at school, I would not have realised that I enjoy it and am capable of achieving reasonable results. If I had not been armed with that knowledge, I would be a good deal less intent on one day getting a full darkroom set up. Unfortunately darkroom skills are almost viewed as magic by many people who haven't had the opportunity to try. When I tell people that I develop film, including cine film, they look upon me as if I am some wizard. But really, it's easy. I was taught very young and have all the equipment I need stored in one bag in a corner of the living room.

This is it.

I did not learn printing at school. My knowledge of darkrooms was what you see in Holywood movies. I had no idea it was a thing someone could do at home. Whether one has relevant experience and knows what they're getting into really matters.