Statement from Harman Technology regarding recent sale to Pemberstone Ventures Ltd.

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Xmas

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I would be interested in the WTE (whole time equivalent) of the 200 employed at Mobberley.
A number of posters have had factory visits, as have I. The, a gentle word I hope, mature, staff were great. As I have said before no continuity planning and although we toured every Dept., excepting admin., no way could I make 200 employees up from those we saw. Yes there is shift work but even then echoing large buildings and few staff. Obviously enough for the workload but the 200, always suspicious of conveniently round numbers, no way, unless there was a mirrored factory next door.

Not only do they make their own film with that number, whatever is a true number, but contract coat and contract finish as well. The £20 million T/O would struggle to support the move on site alone, costed at £100 million in the planning application discussions in the press. The capital costs are high and have been written off long ago although ongoing repairs and running servicing must be high, the economic case for investing £100 million must be thin, unless someone wants a hobby. The buy out achieved its aim, keep running to keep us in jobs until we can retire, even better if we can sell near then and get a gain on our investment, cynical and does discount the obvious dedication of the team.

The WTE would be smaller, think of zero hours contracts...
Making film is a skilled job not like microwaving a supermarket curry.
The sale of site and lease back of building had Terms and conditions.
The buy out ditto.
I'm still using HP5+ Cine and PanF+ from pre Harman days. Just souped my last 220 FP4.
The buy out people may have either the estate in mind or Kodak doing a Titanic, or both, they won't be planning on terminating any golden egg laying geese if they are still laying.
 

RobC

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Statement from Harman Technology Ltd

Apologies for joining the discussion so late, yesterday was a little hectic...

I just wanted to post a something on here as I know Simon is a regular contributor and many will be expecting a response. Firstly I have to tell you that Simon exited the business when it was sold. Simon may well continue to be an APUG contributor in a personal capacity however I don't know that for sure.

Many of you have already read the press release about the sale of the business. I don't really have anything more to add on that front, other that to say it's definitely business as usual. This is an exciting time for all involved in the business, I've worked for Harman / Ilford for 28 years and this is yet another chapter in our story !

Harman will continue to support APUG and my Technical services team (David, Sue and Myself) will monitor and contribute to APUG. I have set up a "Harman Tech Service" APUG member which we will share between us.

Our primary technical support will continue to be via the "Contact Us" section of the Ilford Photo website.

Neil

Neil Hibbs

Welcome to APUG Neil. By now you should have a fair idea of what you're dealing with:smile:
 

pentaxuser

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Is there a chance here that operations could be being moved to a more business-friendly environ? Some money infusion to build inventory to cover needs during a move? Conjecture, certainly, but it makes as much sense as some of the guessing.

Like the U.S. and maybe within the U.S. N.W. Wisconsin perhaps?:D

I do wonder whether people in the U.S. have an outmoded impression of how business is operated in the U.K. Starbucks and others seem quite happy with their tax situation here and so they should be. We have zero hours contracts coming out of our ears and a very low rate of corporation tax.

If a more friendly business environment means a wholesale move of all of Mobberley's facilities, not to mention its resident expertise then speak to PE about the difficulties this imposes. He has mentioned this several times

pentaxuser
 
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...The £20 million T/O would struggle to support the move on site alone, costed at £100 million in the planning application discussions in the press...
Cost of moving HARMAN's equipment, including the coating line, to new buildings at the Mobberley site was to be (and still may be, if the appeal is decided in favor of development) born by LPC Living, HARMAN's landlord.
 

RobC

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Cost of moving HARMAN's equipment, including the coating line, to new buildings at the Mobberley site was to be (and still may be, if the appeal is decided in favor of development) born by LPC Living, HARMAN's landlord.

I just can't see how it will happen with 500 village complainants (largely about the scale of the proposed housing development) but also the noise regulations for domestic housing. If the noise is above regulations they would need to ignore the regulations and that would create a storm. And who would want to buy these houses anyway given that they are right under the airport flightpath.
 
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Cost of moving HARMAN's equipment, including the coating line, to new buildings at the Mobberley site was to be (and still may be, if the appeal is decided in favor of development) born by LPC Living, HARMAN's landlord.

I just can't see how it will happen with 500 village complainants (largely about the scale of the proposed housing development) but also the noise regulations for domestic housing. If the noise is above regulations they would need to ignore the regulations and that would create a storm. And who would want to buy these houses anyway given that they are right under the airport flightpath.
My posts have a consistent theme. They concentrate on objective facts. :smile:

The answer to "how" is "politics." Since discussion of politics, as well as speculation, is prohibited here, we'll just have to wait until next year and see what the appeal outcome is. :D
 

pbromaghin

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I just can't see how it will happen with 500 village complainants (largely about the scale of the proposed housing development) but also the noise regulations for domestic housing. If the noise is above regulations they would need to ignore the regulations and that would create a storm. And who would want to buy these houses anyway given that they are right under the airport flightpath.

Well, take a look at the area with Google Earth. It appears to be pretty prosperous, with some fairly new-looking homes and large estates even more directly under the flight path and closer to the airport. Knutsford, just a mile down the road, has over 13,000 people and it's population grew by 500 in the last 10 years. It has much lower rates of council renters, unemployed and unhealthy people along with higher homeownership, and a more qualified workforce than English averages. There are plenty of people to buy those houses.
 

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Well, take a look at the area with Google Earth. It appears to be pretty prosperous, with some fairly new-looking homes and large estates even more directly under the flight path and closer to the airport. Knutsford, just a mile down the road, has over 13,000 people and it's population grew by 500 in the last 10 years. It has much lower rates of council renters, unemployed and unhealthy people along with higher homeownership, and a more qualified workforce than English averages. There are plenty of people to buy those houses.

I think you'll find that both Mobberley and Knutsford were there before the airport. It is the airport that has grown in usage and size of aircraft.
Also looking at the houses in Knutsford, at the runway end (which is further away than Mobberley site), they look 1980s at the latest. 30 years old. Airport usage and noise regulations have not remained the same and planning are much more strict on regulations being observed these days.

We'll see.
 

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Planning rules here in the UK seem, to me at least, to depend entirely on the current views, plans and whims of the incumbent local and government authorities, with no real regard to their trumpeted "public participation". A tiny example is local to me, a greenfield site, suitable for about 60 houses, where the planning approval has been on-and-off for at least 35 years with political changes. Local objection has been consistent (and totally disregarded) for the whole time, with blatently obvious issues, everything from currently dangerous traffic to rare plants ! Then they wonder why people get cynical ! (Disclaimer - I have no personal interest, other than it is the last green site in the town.)
 

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Would it be impossible or uneconomic for Harman to relocate totally to a smaller modern purpose built facility elsewhere ? Is the "big" coater really needed, given that Adox and, hopefully, Ferrania are using smaller lines from scratch ? Harman don't make film or paper base, and inkjet seems to come in from Hahnemulle (or "Made in China" as labelled on a Harman lustre paper box in front of me now), while Fuji, and maybe othersm still seems willing to do own-label manufacturing. Perhaps a radical thought, but things can change in unexpected ways.
 

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Ilford is not a cash rich company by the look of it. I think its a viable concern but doesn't have the funds to buy its own site and to build a factory on it. If PV will invest the funds to do that, then all is well and good. But it seems to me that the site where Ilford are now is perfectly satisfactory. The question is whether they can afford to build a new purpose built building for the their current scale of operations on that site.
It may be that PV can do that but the figures being banded about are £100M and that is a lot of investment money for a company with its current annual profit.
 
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If they are only truly grossing 20M in revenue there is no way in hell they can afford to relocate nor will anyone else invest those funds to do so. Can you imagine the cost for land, or building, or even just renting a new locale and the cost relocating and re-set up of all that equipment?
 

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If they are only truly grossing 20M in revenue there is no way in hell they can afford to relocate nor will anyone else invest those funds to do so. Can you imagine the cost for land, or building, or even just renting a new locale and the cost relocating and re-set up of all that equipment?

No Ilford couldn't afford it but PV may already own a site so land purchase may not be an issue. It then becomes a question of a purpose design and built manufacturing facility. They already have all the major equipment but since its 30+ years old some of it may require renewing.

The current site owners were going to pay for a new building on the current site and if thats still going to happen then all well and good. But they have to get planning for development of the site which presumably would need to generate sufficient funds to cover costs of the new building. It all sounds very complicated to me.
 

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Planning rules here in the UK seem, to me at least, to depend entirely on the current views, plans and whims of the incumbent local and government authorities, with no real regard to their trumpeted "public participation".

Public participation is just a token gesture to make people think that their opinions matter. The reality is that any planning application must be approved unless there is a valid reason to reject it. A load of locals just saying "we don't want it" is not a valid reason.


Steve.
 

RobC

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Public participation is just a token gesture to make people think that their opinions matter. The reality is that any planning application must be approved unless there is a valid reason to reject it. A load of locals just saying "we don't want it" is not a valid reason.
Steve.

It is if you want be re-elected onto the council.
 

xo-whiplock

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No Ilford couldn't afford it but PV may already own a site so land purchase may not be an issue. It then becomes a question of a purpose design and built manufacturing facility. They already have all the major equipment but since its 30+ years old some of it may require renewing.

The current site owners were going to pay for a new building on the current site and if thats still going to happen then all well and good. But they have to get planning for development of the site which presumably would need to generate sufficient funds to cover costs of the new building. It all sounds very complicated to me.

Just guessing here... Pemberstone now owning Harman along with their other holdings and resources puts Pemberstone in a fulcrum position to get the developers to not just fund upgrading the site, but now funding a relocation instead, as the property is worth more to the developers to get the site changed over to the proposed housing project. Harman alone was not a player in the future of the site, but now with Pemberstone/Harman together, whatever the direction, the proposed developers and land owners will foot the bill for whatever Pemberstone/Harman decide to do. Relocating and setting up a factory in a new location would make everyone happy. How much everyone contributes is what's being worked out. I can bet that the burden will not be on Pemberstone/Harman but on the people looking to make big money from re-development for housing (all or part of the land???).
 

RobC

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My posts have a consistent theme. They concentrate on objective facts. :smile:

The answer to "how" is "politics." Since discussion of politics, as well as speculation, is prohibited here, we'll just have to wait until next year and see what the appeal outcome is. :D

There's no such thing as a fact. Look up "half-life of facts" and you will find that whats considered a fact today will be found not to be a fact tomorrow or next week or next year or become obsolete. Therefore you are guaranteed to be talking bollocks. And that's a fact. :laugh:
 

wblynch

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Well one fact that is true today is I can buy fresh, new Ilford film and paper at great prices.

We will see what the half life of that fact is and whether it is obsolete tomorrow.

I'm reminded right now of the private equity firm that bought the rights to a 60 year old drug that sold for $13 a pill. They raised the price to $750 a pill overnight because they decided they wanted more profit.

I wonder if such a horrible thing might happen to our beloved Ilford film?
 

Xmas

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KA just did that to bulk Tx and Tmax ie

New £ = old £ x 3

It won't be selling.
Lots of people use Foma already.
 

Chris Livsey

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I'm reminded right now of the private equity firm that bought the rights to a 60 year old drug that sold for $13 a pill. They raised the price to $750 a pill overnight because they decided they wanted more profit.

They have a monopoly in a free market, Ilford are not, yet, in that position. It is unlikely they ever will be, despite the "last man standing" statement.
 

mesantacruz

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Well one fact that is true today is I can buy fresh, new Ilford film and paper at great prices.

We will see what the half life of that fact is and whether it is obsolete tomorrow.

I'm reminded right now of the private equity firm that bought the rights to a 60 year old drug that sold for $13 a pill. They raised the price to $750 a pill overnight because they decided they wanted more profit.

I wonder if such a horrible thing might happen to our beloved Ilford film?

Actually the people spoke and there was so much outrage the price never went in effect. One way to be heard loud and clear is by voting with your wallet. If prices rise people move along.
 

Xmas

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Just guessing here... Pemberstone now owning Harman along with their other holdings and resources puts Pemberstone in a fulcrum position to get the developers to not just fund upgrading the site, but now funding a relocation instead, as the property is worth more to the developers to get the site changed over to the proposed housing project. Harman alone was not a player in the future of the site, but now with Pemberstone/Harman together, whatever the direction, the proposed developers and land owners will foot the bill for whatever Pemberstone/Harman decide to do. Relocating and setting up a factory in a new location would make everyone happy. How much everyone contributes is what's being worked out. I can bet that the burden will not be on Pemberstone/Harman but on the people looking to make big money from re-development for housing (all or part of the land???).

Good thing you put the just guessing...

My understanding that while Ilford owned the large site Harman only have a lease on their current factory building but the site lease holder has an option of building a suitable smaller factory on the same site to gain real estate for development.

The PV guys would have looked at all the weasel words. They might even have bought the site before buying Harman.

The site is in a prime location for housing or factories...
 

Roger Cole

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The price of that drug for Toxoplasmosis is STILL going up. He says he will roll back "some" of the increase.

I saw a new price (still an outrageous increase just not AS outrageous) somewhere but can't find it now so we'll see.

But I don't think Ilford/Harman will do anything like that. For one thing, Adox and Foma and, for now at least, Kodak make competing problems. Cries about Kodak price increases are mainly sheet film and bulk 35mm film. Rolls of both 35mm and 120 are still competitive.
 
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