Statement from Harman Technology regarding recent sale to Pemberstone Ventures Ltd.

[Xmas]

HiRob

Silver has fallen over the 18m window but I'd not expect film or silver paper to track.

Noel

 

[RobC]

HiRob

Silver has fallen over the 18m window but I'd not expect film or silver paper to track.

Noel

Nor would I. Once wholsesale prices go up they rarely come down which means more profit for manufacturer if raw material(commodity) prices go down. Helps make the books look good too.

 

[MattKing]

http://www.hurst.co.uk/news/pemberstone-ventures-focuses-growth-harman-technology

£20M seems like quite a small amount of turnover for a company with 200 employees exporting to 40 countries.

I presume that includes all its inkjet media too.

The phrase in the linked article is "Harman, which was owned by its management team, employs 200 staff and turned over £19.4m in 2014."

It may be that "turned over" has some esoteric meaning that is different from simple revenue.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Somewhere I read if memory serves me correct the number was more like 80 rather than 20. but this could be faulty memory.

20 could not support 200people I agree.

QUOTE=RattyMouse;1953791149][/QUOTE]

This must be an error. There's no way 200 people, raw materials, and production costs, could be supported by such a tiny amount of revenue.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bob Carnie]

Profit?

The phrase in the linked article is "Harman, which was owned by its management team, employs 200 staff and turned over £19.4m in 2014."

It may be that "turned over" has some esoteric meaning that is different from simple revenue.

 

[RobC]

Somewhere I read if memory serves me correct the number was more like 80 rather than 20. but this could be faulty memory.

20 could not support 200people I agree.

This must be an error. There's no way 200 people, raw materials, and production costs, could be supported by such a tiny amount of revenue.

That's 100,000 per employee so it must be viable. If it wasn't they wouldn't have been bought. Mind you, since it was for an undisclosed sum it could have been bought for £1 for all we know.
My surprise was that turnover world wide was lower than I would have imagined given that Ilford are the largest B+W paper manufacturer in the world (as far as I know).

Given that Kodak are likely to stop production of film at some point in the not too distant future, Ilfords film revenue should increase at that time. So their future could be more white than black. Every cloud has a silver lining

 

[pbromaghin]

This must be an error. There's no way 200 people, raw materials, and production costs, could be supported by such a tiny amount of revenue.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Not much for 200 employees. But according to the Financial Times, usage of the phrase in the UK means revenue net of taxes and discounts.

http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=turnover

 

[Xmas]

This must be an error. There's no way 200 people, raw materials, and production costs, could be supported by such a tiny amount of revenue.

Agreed. Not much for 200 employees. But according to the Financial Times, usage of the phrase in the UK means revenue net of taxes and discounts.

http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=turnover[/QUOTE]

It has a formal accounting meaning and the current and previous years accounts need to be at company house once a year for most companies. A take over group would normally audit the detailed accounts and secondary books.

When Kodak and Fuji stop the minnows will have a clear field. PV may have good sources for all we know.

But it is more likely they are interested in the estate lease rather then silver halide products.

Note Fuji stopped Neopan 400 already ~ which I used!

 

[railwayman3]

For some reason I can't, at the moment, log into the official UK government Company Registry website (www.companieshouse.gov.uk) to check the last audited and filed accounts, but from memory I'm fairly sure that the last annual turnover was around 20m.

But this is at net ex-factory wholesale prices, which could be something like 1/3 of the retail price, to which must also be added sales tax (VAT at 20% in the UK, possible duties in some countries...could be up to 60-70m worth by the time products reach eventual users.

And, from a factory visit, it seemed that a lot of staff are part-time...e.g. one lady in darkroom paper packing said that 2-3 hours a day working in dim red light was all that was allowed, but that this suited her and others very well, given local employment and young family commitments.

So all perfectly feasible ?

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

The lady is right: it is only 2-3 hours in the dark, THEN they go and do something else. The "girls" normally "run" their shopping list while in the darkroom. That's probably where you got the idea of "part-time".
You were not paying attention.

How's your hearing? Good?
Here's an interview with the "lady": http://filmphotographyproject.com/podcast/2015/04/film-photography-podcast-episode-123-%E2%80%93-april-15-2015

Oh, I was forgetting, here is all about Harman Technology accounts: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history

 

[Bob Carnie]

I am not surprised whatsoever about the low turnover... 20 years ago I was processing up to 200 rolls a day basically 7 days a week , problem was keeping up to the demand

fast forward I think I would be lucky to process 20 rolls a month.

I think this dramatic drop in sales , did not only affect me and my lab, or is a Toronto thing.


QUOTE=RobC;1953791280]That's 100,000 per employee so it must be viable. If it wasn't they wouldn't have been bought. Mind you, since it was for an undisclosed sum it could have been bought for £1 for all we know.
My surprise was that turnover world wide was lower than I would have imagined given that Ilford are the largest B+W paper manufacturer in the world (as far as I know).

Given that Kodak are likely to stop production of film at some point in the not too distant future, Ilfords film revenue should increase at that time. So their future could be more white than black. Every cloud has a silver lining [/QUOTE]

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

678,000 British Pounds in profit fiscal year 2013 from 20M in revenue.

It is smaller than I thought.

The lady is right: it is only 2-3 hours in the dark, THEN they go and do something else. The "girls" normally "run" their shopping list while in the darkroom. That's probably where you got the idea of "part-time".
You were not paying attention.

How's your hearing? Good?
Here's an interview with the "lady": http://filmphotographyproject.com/p...otography-podcast-episode-123-–-april-15-2015

Oh, I was forgetting, here is all about Harman Technology accounts: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history

 

[jrhilton]

For all that doubt the numbers you can see the last accounts that Harman submitted (2013) publicly here for free curtesy of the uk govt as it is on public record. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history

2013 was £20m turnover and £0.679 PAT. Turnover went down from 2013 but PAT was up. 2014 numbers not submitted yet. Though are due soon. The 2013 Strategic report makes interesting reading as it makes reference to actual sales volume and those numbers would be ticked back to support by the auditors so you don't get a better confirmation than those on the state of the market then for their products.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

This part of the financial statement is what matters to me:

Film sales, for both Ilford and Kentmere brands combined, showed an increase in volume of 0.5% (2012: (10.8%)). Paper sales, although still showing decline, showed a noticeable diminution in regression rate, slowing to 7.6% from 25% in the previous year.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

This part of the financial statement is what matters to me:

Yes, the paper sales worry me more than film. Lots of people shoot film these days, but hardly anybody talks about printing, which is the most fun part to me.

 

[railwayman3]

The lady is right: it is only 2-3 hours in the dark, THEN they go and do something else. The "girls" normally "run" their shopping list while in the darkroom. That's probably where you got the idea of "part-time".
You were not paying attention.

How's your hearing? Good?
Here's an interview with the "lady": http://filmphotographyproject.com/podcast/2015/04/film-photography-podcast-episode-123-%E2%80%93-april-15-2015

Oh, I was forgetting, here is all about Harman Technology accounts: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history

My factory visit was some five years ago, and I was clearly not speaking with the same person as in your interview.

I well recall what I discussed, and I do not appreciate being accused of not paying attention. And your sarcasm about my hearing does nothing to improve whatever point you are trying to make.

 

[Ricardo Miranda]

My factory visit was some five years ago, and I was clearly not speaking with the same person as in your interview.

I well recall what I discussed, and I do not appreciate being accused of not paying attention. And your sarcasm about my hearing does nothing to improve whatever point you are trying to make.

Sorry darling, I thought I was talking to a robot.
Robots don't have names nor sense of humour.
Next time, please sign with your real name. First name is fine.

 

[railwayman3]

For all that doubt the numbers you can see the last accounts that Harman submitted (2013) publicly here for free curtesy of the uk govt as it is on public record. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/05227615/filing-history

2013 was £20m turnover and £0.679 PAT. Turnover went down from 2013 but PAT was up. 2014 numbers not submitted yet. Though are due soon. The 2013 Strategic report makes interesting reading as it makes reference to actual sales volume and those numbers would be ticked back to support by the auditors so you don't get a better confirmation than those on the state of the market then for their products.

Thanks for that info.....I still can't access the filing history (rather flaky internet connection here miles from anywhere in Czech Republic, until the w/e.), As a retired Chartered Accountant who worked in audit many times over the years, the public records at Companies House are as good as it gets for reliable public info....it is a criminal offence to engage in false accounting.

 

[railwayman3]

Sorry darling, I thought I was talking to a robot.
Robots don't have names nor sense of humour.
Next time, please sign with your real name. First name is fine.

I wasn't aware that real names were compulsory in this, or most other web forums.....I'd actually assumed that Ricardo Miranda was a nick as it sounds like a circus performer.

 

[pbromaghin]

But in 2013 (the latest report available at that website) they went from a net loss of just over 100k to a profit of almost 700k. And their debt went down by 500k. Those are VERY good results.

 

[railwayman3]

But in 2013 (the latest report available at that website) they went from a net loss of just over 100k to a profit of almost 700k. And their debt went down by 500k. Those are VERY good results.

IIRC, the 2012 loss was after reorganisation and redundancy costs, but that doesn't detract from the excellence of the later profits and debt reduction; shows that things are paying off if this is maintained in 2014 (these next accounts should be publically filed by next week, 30th Sept.)

 

[Roger Cole]

Yes, the paper sales worry me more than film. Lots of people shoot film these days, but hardly anybody talks about printing, which is the most fun part to me.

I agree to an extent. The thing is though, while Ilford makes a wide selection of the best papers around, Adox and Foma make great papers too. They make film too, and it's certainly usable, but I could print entirely on Adox and Foma papers a lot easier than I could live without Ilford's superb films.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk and 100% recycled electrons - because I care.

 

[craigclu]

Something not mentioned on this... I always thought it was difficult to function within the UK system for business, in general. I recently retired from a multi-national company and there was always frustration within the UK division in regards to profitability. The reasons are many... I had one manager declare that he couldn't produce ice cream buckets of air for under $10 when calculating fixed costs. Is there a chance here that operations could be being moved to a more business-friendly environ? Some money infusion to build inventory to cover needs during a move? Conjecture, certainly, but it makes as much sense as some of the guessing.

 

[Xmas]

Something not mentioned on this... I always thought it was difficult to function within the UK system for business, in general. I recently retired from a multi-national company and there was always frustration within the UK division in regards to profitability. The reasons are many... I had one manager declare that he couldn't produce ice cream buckets of air for under $10 when calculating fixed costs. Is there a chance here that operations could be being moved to a more business-friendly environ? Some money infusion to build inventory to cover needs during a move? Conjecture, certainly, but it makes as much sense as some of the guessing.

Hi Craig
easy answer

Kodak Harrow made 400 people redundant 2004 when they closed down their film coating capability.
We are told the Eastman factory at Rochester has 300 people making film
Harman makes film and paper with 200 people.

The rule book is if it is not broke don't fix it. In US you get fired.

The Harman film is ok from Kentmere cheap to Delta bulk still cheaper than Alaris bulk and same signature on a 16x20 print.

Noel

 

[Chris Livsey]

I would be interested in the WTE (whole time equivalent) of the 200 employed at Mobberley.
A number of posters have had factory visits, as have I. The, a gentle word I hope, mature, staff were great. As I have said before no continuity planning and although we toured every Dept., excepting admin., no way could I make 200 employees up from those we saw. Yes there is shift work but even then echoing large buildings and few staff. Obviously enough for the workload but the 200, always suspicious of conveniently round numbers, no way, unless there was a mirrored factory next door.

Not only do they make their own film with that number, whatever is a true number, but contract coat and contract finish as well. The £20 million T/O would struggle to support the move on site alone, costed at £100 million in the planning application discussions in the press. The capital costs are high and have been written off long ago although ongoing repairs and running servicing must be high, the economic case for investing £100 million must be thin, unless someone wants a hobby. The buy out achieved its aim, keep running to keep us in jobs until we can retire, even better if we can sell near then and get a gain on our investment, cynical and does discount the obvious dedication of the team.