Snow Exposure advice needed

[Paul Ozzello]

You want to be nowhere near the shoulder.

Grain is created by increased exposure and increased development.

If youre seeing very low contrast and grain it means you are shooting on the shoulder where contrast drops off rapidly and grain increaes.

Its heavy overexposure ending up on shoulder thats causing the issues.

I wouldnt even be bothering messing around with films and developers when you can do all yr contrast adjustments in yr imaging software as long as yr image highlights are sitting on the straight portion of the film not the shoulder.

Just run a quick test overexposing a shot 0 +2 +4 +6 +8 and you should observe the same problem as overexposure increaes

I'm definitely overexposing, probably by a full stop maybe a little more. But I think for those specific flat snow scenes the x-tol (1:1) /delta combination is really exacerbating the problem : here is a comparison of Delta 100 processed in TMAX and XTOL, There's a huge difference in the highlight response, the tmax developer seems to give you much more latitude before getting into trouble. Yesterday I shot a whole roll of delta100 in the same lighting conditions and exposure and bracketed -1 -2 -3 -4 -5 to compare to the tmax film combinations. Anxious to see the results...

 

[grain elevator]

The reasonably straight part of the Xtol curve (the blue line) is 14 stops if I'm reading it right. Should be plenty.
Edit: That can't be right, the exposure scale must be half stops.

 

[Sirius Glass]

The reasonably straight part of the Xtol curve (the blue line) is 14 stops if I'm reading it right. Should be plenty.
Edit: That can't be right, the exposure scale must be half stops.

In the Southwest US, I often have captured fourteen f/stops on film. The problem is getting the complete range printed on paper.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Oh, for sure there's a margin for error (meter, shutter, exact aperture, etc), but as I said, the orange filter augmented the contrast in the snow area, thus increasing texture.

Achieving super-high precision with exposure and development may not necessarily make a huge difference in actual results. What you want to ensure first is repeatability and reliability of your technique, whether it's totally empirical, or measured to the hilt with tools.

Interesting comparisons, thanks for posting those. So you think the difference is entirely due to the yellow filter and not a variation of the exposure ? The entire scene looks darker and I wonder if the filter factor might not be exact for that particular film and developer.

 

[radiant]

I was shooting in quite difficult lightning conditions yesterday. I was myself in shadows and the area where sun shined was too far away on ice to go and measure incident light.

So I spot metered. I took reading from the bright snow and exposed +2 stops from that reading. Surely the snow in front would need more light but I think I the I would have destroyed highlights and the details in the sky.

I also visualized that the tree in front can be just black. However I didn't think of the snow in the foreground. Maybe one stop more could have be possible, but I really wanted to save the sky. I'm going to try to print this tomorrow and will dodge the foreground if that works out.

So spotmetering saved me. It is pity I didn't write the incident reading at the shadows down, I cannot remember it.



Measuring at snow conditions is quite challenging.. I've used incident measuring when available. If I don't have light meter with me I just take reading from my skin (camera meter) and add one stop. I think with these methods the snow drops in about right zones.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

I'm a slacker and still haven't developed the test rolls I shot in January. Well not actually slacking, but severely side tracked by my photobook. I should get around to it over the next few days and will post a follow-up. Thanks to everyone for your suggestions.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

I managed to print a few frames in the darkroom. I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. Sure, I managed to get contrast and detail, but maybe my film combo (HP5+ and DK-50 1+1) wasn't the best for tonality. The snow looks kind of dirty, although it has texture. On the contact sheet it looks much better than as an enlargement, which leads me to think that this is the kind of subject that really needs as little enlargement as possible, either as a contact print, or a 2x-4x enlargement max.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I took a class at the Photographers' Formulary for Nathan McCreery and I can get my photographs of snow with white snow every time.

http://workshopsmt.homestead.com/B-W-Landscapes-Nathan-McCreery.html?_=1602080006086

It is time for you to take a trip to Montana and learn something.

 

[Paul Ozzello]

I took a class at the Photographers' Formulary for Nathan McCreery and I can get my photographs of snow with white snow every time.

http://workshopsmt.homestead.com/B-W-Landscapes-Nathan-McCreery.html?_=1602080006086

It is time for you to take a trip to Montana and learn something.

Troll

I managed to print a few frames in the darkroom. I have to say I'm not terribly impressed. Sure, I managed to get contrast and detail, but maybe my film combo (HP5+ and DK-50 1+1) wasn't the best for tonality. The snow looks kind of dirty, although it has texture. On the contact sheet it looks much better than as an enlargement, which leads me to think that this is the kind of subject that really needs as little enlargement as possible, either as a contact print, or a 2x-4x enlargement max.

Was that the case for both versions ? Maybe you just need to crank up the contrast - or dodge the snow with a magenta filter ?

I'm also wondering if my technique is inconsistant, I've been working on a few images with similar snow conditions that look great. I really have to get those test rolls developed ASAP...

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Here's an example of a print from the roll I showed earlier. On a very dull, overcast day, your challenge is really to find contrast anywhere at all. There's always a little bit of directionality to the light, either because of the position of the sun, or the shadow cast by surrounding objects, or the reflectance of objects, or the result of filtration.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Troll



Was that the case for both versions ? Maybe you just need to crank up the contrast - or dodge the snow with a magenta filter ?

I'm also wondering if my technique is inconsistant, I've been working on a few images with similar snow conditions that look great. I really have to get those test rolls developed ASAP...

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I see that part of the reason you cannot get white snow is that you photograph dirty snow. Shoot photographs of white snow for starters.

 

[radiant]

Here's an example of a print from the roll I showed earlier. On a very dull, overcast day, your challenge is really to find contrast anywhere at all. There's always a little bit of directionality to the light, either because of the position of the sun, or the shadow cast by surrounding objects, or the reflectance of objects, or the result of filtration.

For me it seems you have underexposed the film based on shadows. The snow falls into wrong zones. That is why it looks dirty..

edit: I think if you want the snow to have details AND to be on right zone, you need bright day and low sun.

 

[Michel Hardy-Vallée]

Oh of course, it's underexposed, because I tried to develop N+2 (reduce EI a little, increase development a little more). The premiss of the experiment was the OP's interrogation about how to have detail in the snow when photographing on an exceedingly flat day (uniform grey skies).

Next time I try that, I think I will keep my usual EI, and only increase development.

I sure agree with the need for a bright day to have good-looking snow!

For me it seems you have underexposed the film based on shadows. The snow falls into wrong zones. That is why it looks dirty..

edit: I think if you want the snow to have details AND to be on right zone, you need bright day and low sun.

 

[MattKing]

I sure agree with the need for a bright day to have good-looking snow!

Isn't there a Frank Zappa song about that?