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That's a useful amount of compression, but not all that impressive compared to compression of the 8 bit file. The compression for the 16 bit file was about three times worse than the 8 bit file. Looked at another way, the sized of the compressed 8 bit file only 18% that of the compressed 16 bit file, and the 16 bit file does not contain more useful pictorial information than the 8 bit file (assuming one can even use the term "pictorial" in reference to a step wedge.)
I think this probably means that the Epson scanner that Adrian used is not very good at pulling out information from dense parts of the negative. That's to bad because I have a similar scanner (an Epson V/750), and I would be pleased if these scanners would do a little better.
Would the format of the film affect DR and banding results? ie. 35mm vs. 4x5?
Another question I've asked before but never got an answer to is the following. Do you set the white and black points (levels) for the scan? Or, do you scan flat (0-255 range) and do the levels in post-processing program?
Others have said you should do it for the scan as you will get more data from the scan. But I think the levels if set in the scanning software only edits flat scan results in any case after the scanner scans the full range. So there's only an appearance you're getting more data. At least that's my theory. Does anyone know the actual answer? How and when does the scanner do its leveling if set for the scan?
It's not clear to me. Let';s say the image has data from 25-215. If I sent the scan at 0-255, will I wind up with less data from 25-215 because the scanner is gett data where there is none between 0-25 and from 215-255? Or, if we set the black and white point to 25 and 215, does the scanner actually scan 0-255 and then after it collects the data, it applies the black and white points at 25 and 215. If the latter, than it would seem to matter but if the former, than you;d be losing data?if you scan at 16 bits, you will never get more than 65536 unique tone values. If you scan flat, just get get up to that amount that you can then just push and pull around. If you set the white and black points in the scan, however many unique tone values are between the two points are redistributed between 0 and 65535. If scanning and saving at 16 bits, this doesn’t matter, but if saving at 8 bits, it’d be better to set the white and black points in the scan so that the remaining 16 bit tone values are redistributed between 0-65535 before being gamma encoded and scaled down the 256 unique tone values, so if scanning at 16 bits but outputting 8 bits, it’s better to set the white and black points in the scan, but if scanning and saving at 16 bits, it doesn’t matter, do what you want.
if scanning at 8 bits, you will never have more than 256 unique tone values, and setting the white and black points in the scan isn’t going to do anything but potentially chop that down even further. Why anybody would actually scan at 8 bits is beyond me. It’s way the heck noisier in the lower tone values and an all around inferior scan to begin with. Just don’t do it unless you have no choice.
It's not clear to me. Let';s say the image has data from 25-215. If I sent the scan at 0-255, will I wind up with less data from 25-215 because the scanner is gett data where there is none between 0-25 and from 215-255? Or, if we set the black and white point to 25 and 215, does the scanner actually scan 0-255 and then after it collects the data, it applies the black and white points at 25 and 215. If the latter, than it would seem to matter but if the former, than you;d be losing data?
I scan in 16 bits and then post-process in Lightroom in 16 bits. Let's forget about 8 bits and only talk in 16 bits.The image tooling will only show you 0-255 regardless of how many bits the source is, that 0-255 is internally scaled to whatever the bit depth of the source is, so:
If scanning at 16 bits, and you set the scan from 25-215, the actual range of the underlying data is: 6425-55255 for a total of 48830 discrete tone values that are then stretched back out and redistributed between 0-65535. When that is scaled back down to the 0-255 of 8 bits, all 256 discrete tone values will contain values, because you're scaling 48830 discrete tone values down to 255 discrete tone values, thus maximizing the usage of the 8 bits you're saving to.
If scanning at 8 bits. and you set the scan from 25-215, the actual range of the underlying data is: 25-215 for a total of 190 discrete tone values, that are stretched back out and redistributed between 0-255. Since it's already 8 bits, there is no scaling down to 8 bits, so you end up with an 8 bit file that contains 190 discrete values, instead of an 8 bit file that contains 256 discrete tone values.
Does that make sense?
I scan in 16 bits and then post-process in Lightroom in 16 bits. Let's forget about 8 bits and only talk in 16 bits.
What happens then if I scan 25-215 vs scanning at 0-255 flat. Which provides more data in the final scanner of the original image?
So if I understand your point, the 25 and 215 points if selected before the scan means that the scanner applies those limits after the scan of 0-255? The scanner always nominally scans flat and applies levels afterward?On a purely technical level, 0-255 flat would, though, on a practical level, you'd be hard pressed to see any difference because you'd presumably then be setting the black and white points in LR instead of in the scanning app, and either way, you have way more discrete tone values than you can actually display, so it really just comes down to preference. If you want more of a finished image coming out of the scanner app, then do it there, if you'd prefer to get to a finished image in LR or PS, then just do a flat scan.
So if I understand your point, the 25 and 215 points if selected before the scan means that the scanner applies those limits after the scan of 0-255? The scanner always nominally scans flat and applies levels afterward?
So if I understand your point, the 25 and 215 points if selected before the scan means that the scanner applies those limits after the scan of 0-255? The scanner always nominally scans flat and applies levels afterward?
Well, many people have said the opposite. So because of that, I've been setting the levels for the scan. So now, based on this new info, I will scan everything flat - 0-255 with no other settings used during the scan and do all editing in Lightroom. That will save a lot of time scanning.Yes*.
* There are exceptions, but it's very unlikely that one would have such a scanner and not be aware of that.
Well, many people have said the opposite. So because of that, I've been setting the levels for the scan. So now, based on this new info, I will scan everything flat - 0-255 with no other settings used during the scan and do all editing in Lightroom. That will save a lot of time scanning.
Well, the beauty of scanning flat, is you shut all edits off and you don't have to set anything for each picture. You press "Go" and go get a cup of coffee while it;s doing it;s job scanning m multiple pictures. So you do all the editing in post. You never have to scan a second time because your editing was wrong if done with the scanner's software. You don;t have to learn a second editing program in the scanner software. You only have to learn how to scan flat which is simply done with the scanner's software and that's free.many people either don’t really understand what is really happening under the covers, or, they are just projecting what they do and think everybody should do it their way. If scanning and saving at 16 bits, it’s purely a personal preference for what workflow you want.
The most important thing to understand is that having a ADC converter with more bits does not necessarily mean that the dynamic range of a given system is greater than if you have an ADC converter with fewer bits. The reason is that there are at least two things that can limit the dynamic range. The first is how many bits are in the ADC. However, if the signal source is a noisy one, then at some point noise is the limiting factor, not the number of bits in the ADC. This is well-known in signal processing theory.
Note this result is qualitatively very similar to the 8 bit scan. When I go through the calculation I get a dynamic range of 121 to one. Why did it get a little better after I converted the 16 bit scan to 8 bits? I don't have a full answer to that. However, I suspect that it may be due to the data being in gamma corrected format. Mathematically speaking, this is a non-linear process, and sometimes non-intuitive things can happen when non-linear operations are done on data, and this can be especially true when there is the possibility of roundoff error.
Sometimes it's easier to talk about things in base 10 (ordinary numbers) rather than base 2 (binary numbers), so how about if we shift the discussion to base 10, so that's what I will do in the discussion below.
If there is much noise in your system (total noise, not just the digitizer itself, but the whole system, including the sensor, amplifiers, misc. components, the signal itself, and any other noise sources) then your dynamic range is noise limited, not ADC step size limited. If there is very little noise then dynamic range may be limited by the ADC step size, but only if the ADC step size is much smaller than the noise.
For example, suppose your digitizer has a maximum range of 1 volt. Further suppose that you have noise in the system whose standard deviation is 0.02 volts. Your dynamic range will be noise limited to 50. A digitizer with a step size of 0.01 volt will do an adequate job of capturing the signal and the noise. Going to a digitizer with a step size of .001 or even 0.0001 volts is not going to gain you any useful dynamic range because you are noise limited.
If you have no noise in the system then going to a deeper bit depth will gain you dynamic range, but not if you are noise limited.
Now suppose you have a different system with noise that has a standard deviation of 0.002 volt. Now an ADC with a step size of 0.01 will be inadequate for capturing all of the available dynamic range in the system. But a digitizer with a step size of 0.001 volt is plenty good enough for all practical purposes, and going to a digitizer with a step size of 0.0001 volt buys you only a truly negligible improvement in dynamic range.
Actually, if the standard deviation of the noise is the same value as the ADC step size then for nearly all practical purposes that is also fine because you get a net degradation of dynamic range is only about 4% compared to a digitizer with infinite bit depth, and that is such a small difference that it almost never matters.
If the standard deviation of the noise is even as low as half of the ADC step size then things still aren't too bad. You have about 16% more noise than you would have if you use a digitizer with a higher bit depth. That's not a lot worse, but it might have a small but noticeable impact in some cases.
Once you go much less than half of the ADC step size then things can go bad pretty fast, and in that case you approaching the situation where the dynamic range is limited by the ADC step size rather than the noise.
I illustrate this with a couple of figures below simulating the following cases: 1) The signal is 0.01, the standard deviation of the noise is 0.01, and the ADC step size = 0.01 and 2) The same signal and noise but with the ADC step size = 0.01. Going to a ten times smaller ADC step size bought very little useful improvement, and going to an even smaller ADC step size would buy us virtually no useful improvement.
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As for the Epson scans, I scaled both the 8 and 16 bit results so the axis in the figures are directly comparable, and the calculations were also scaled so they are directly comparable. I should point out one subtlety in how I analyzed my Epson scan. I used a 3 sigma criterion, which is typically what an analytical chemist would use for distinguishing signal from noise near the zero-signal threshold. That is for detection limit. For quantitation limit it is customary to use ten sigma. If you want to use a different sigma multiplier then the calculated dynamic range would different, not that it is truly different but rather it relates to what threshold for noise is considered acceptable.
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