Rolleiflex Hy6...One of the last medium format cameras in production

[ic-racer]

I have started to think 'outside the box' for the source. Of course the source can't be on the paper side, but wait. X-rays can pass through the paper, so it is not IMPOSSIBLE. Perhaps a static discharge can originate behind the paper. Also, I had a Rolleiflex 2000F with some contaminant on the roller. It made a series of black spots (on the the print) with every revolution of the roller.

This paper, however, uses "static" in two meanings, and uses "film" differently than used here on PhotoTrio.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I have started to think 'outside the box' for the source. Of course the source can't be on the paper side, but wait. X-rays can pass through the paper, so it is not IMPOSSIBLE. Perhaps a static discharge can originate behind the paper. Also, I had a Rolleiflex 2000F with some contaminant on the roller. It made a series of black spots (on the the print) with every revolution of the roller.

Well, I think we've exhausted all the inside-the-box options, so outside is all that's left. The scratch seems to be too fine for a light or ESD source, though. I did have a look inside the back of camera last night though, just to see of there was a gremlin in there reaching out to scratch the film. I think you mentioned doing something similar in an earlier post.

 

[Dave Krueger]

It would be interesting to compare a one of our film backs against one that we know doesn't have this problem, presumably an older one. Maybe something has changed in the materials, machining, or fabrication that could help identify the source of the scratch.

 

[Pieter12]

I have an older 6060 film back, with the rubbery coating. I will try to take some shots of the interior--let me know if there are particular details you want. I know there are difference with the current model.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I have an older 6060 film back, with the rubbery coating. I will try to take some shots of the interior--let me know if there are particular details you want. I know there are difference with the current model.

That would be great! Thanks. I would suggest starting with the film path areas at the top and bottom (hinge end) in the area of the small rollers with the insert not installed. If you see anything that seems like it might have a bearing on the problem, please let us know your thoughts. Are there also differences between the older and newer inserts?

 

[Pieter12]

Here you go. I hope this shows what you want. Note that both the top and bottom rollers are black, but smooth so they reflect and look polished. Also, there is no tape anywhere. The flange (?) below the bottom roller is also reflecting light so it looks lighter. It is black metal. There is no tape at the top, but two indents cast into that part. Also, a quick examination with a 4x loupe of the only roll that has been run through this back by me shows no scratches. The inserts all look the same to me.

 

[Dave Krueger]

Here you go. I hope this shows what you want. Note that both the top and bottom rollers are black, but smooth so they reflect and look polished. Also, there is no tape anywhere. The flange (?) below the bottom roller is also reflecting light so it looks lighter. It is black metal. There is no tape at the top, but two indents cast into that part. Also, a quick examination with a 4x loupe of the only roll that has been run through this back by me shows no scratches. The inserts all look the same to me.

View attachment 278179 View attachment 278180 View attachment 278181

Thanks for the pictures. I don't see any differences that might explain why newer film backs would create scratches. It does look like the casting is different, but I don't see any significant differences in features.

While I don't think we've determined exactly what's causing the scratches, there seems to have been some improvement from taping over or near the upper roller. It's possible that simply placing tape in the trough was enough of a change in geometry to reduce the problem, if not cure it. Of course, the improvement could have just been coincidence.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I went back and reviewed the film from my Teflon tape testing and it looks like ic-racer's experiment of taping over the upper roller yielded the most improvement. While I still had scratches, only two frames out of twelve were damaged (and only partially). I am really at a loss for what else to try, so I am going to tape the upper roller again and do some casual pictorial photography (as opposed to roll after roll of test film). Without a fix for the film scratching issue, using my Hy6 for anything important is sadly out of the question.

I will post if anything changes or if I come up with an outside-the-box solution like inventing a sheet film adapter for it. Haha! I will continue to follow this thread (probably the best Hy6 film thread on the internet) and anyone who solves this film scratching issue will have my undying adoration (which, with $2.50, will get you a coffee at Starbucks).

 

[Dave Krueger]

ic-racer and Pieter:

After once again reviewing all the data, pictures, and forum comments, I am still stumped by the 19mm scratch. But, I do have some info that might be of value. Since I got the Hy6, I have shot five rolls of TMax 100 and none of those rolls have any scratches. I shot 4 rolls in November 2020 during the process of fixing the pressure plate issue and determining the lens offsets. After reviewing those rolls, I noticed there were no scratches, so I shot the fifth roll today. No scratches on that one either.

Since almost all the film I've shot in the Hy6 have been test rolls, I've been shooting whatever I've on hand in the fridge. That includes, Ultrafine Extreme 100, Delta 100 and 400, Rollei IR400, TMax 100 and 400, and one roll of Delta 3200 from 2013. All of them except the TMax 100 and the old roll of Delta 3200 have the intermittent 19mm scratch.

I think TMax 100 may have some characteristic that makes it more resistant to scratching. I've heard that TMax 100, unlike other films, when used in glass negative carriers is susceptible to Newton rings on the emulsion side because of how smooth it is. Maybe that smoothness makes a difference here. Or maybe the emulsion is harder or the film and/or backing paper thinner. Who knows.

I just ordered 10 rolls of TMax 100. It doesn't fix the problem, but if it is not susceptible to the 19mm scratch, then at least I have a film I can shoot without having to assume some frames will be damaged on any given roll.

I would be interested in hearing what you guys have experienced with different films, especially TMax 100. The scratch problem is so similar for the three of us, I'm hoping you'll have similar positive results from TMax 100. It could be a fluke, but maybe not.

P.S. I don't recall anyone previously posting about this 19mm scratch not happening with certain films. If someone did, please post a link to it.

 

[ic-racer]

I have not posted here for a while. The COVID surge has not allowed me much time to use my camera in the year since I got it.
I will say that the last thing I did to my film back was to carefully sand the rollers with 600 sandpaper. My last few rolls were a combination of TMY and HP5 and it appeared to minimize or solve the scratch issue. Maybe an occasional tiny scratch between frames, but no ruined frames.
My next step was to use gunmetal blue to blacken them again, after the sanding.

 

[ic-racer]

The oddest thing I have observed is that when the film is drying, after the surface water is gone but the emulsion is still waterlogged, I can see a groove in the emulsion. When the emulsion is completely dry, I can't see the groove any more. Sometimes a BLACK line remains on the film, but sometimes not.

 

[Dave Krueger]

I have not posted here for a while. The COVID surge has not allowed me much time to use my camera in the year since I got it.
I will say that the last thing I did to my film back was to carefully sand the rollers with 600 sandpaper. My last few rolls were a combination of TMY and HP5 and it appeared to minimize or solve the scratch issue. Maybe an occasional tiny scratch between frames, but no ruined frames.
My next step was to use gunmetal blue to blacken them again, after the sanding.

ic- racer:

Thanks for the reply. I haven't been able to convince myself that the rollers are causing the 19mm scratch because the Teflon tape should have eliminated the scratch of that were the case. On the other hand, I have no other better explanation for how the scratch is getting there. The bluing sounds like a good way to restore the black coating on the rollers. Another option might be to mask the edge of the film gate just enough to prevent image light from directly impinging on the polished rollers. I'm not too keen on doing anything to the camera that can't be reversed. If the rollers can be removed, that would certainly make the bluing operation much simpler (or at least less messy).

I shot another roll of TMax 100 today. Again no scratches. For MF, I prefer to shoot higher speed film (usually TMY) to allow hand holding at small apertures and/or with filters. The scratches have been a problem for me with TMY, but I haven't tested HP5 yet. I also plan to retest Delta 3200 since it's the only other film I've tested that had no scratches. Of course, cherry picking film brands is not the preferred solution...

 

[Dave Krueger]

The oddest thing I have observed is that when the film is drying, after the surface water is gone but the emulsion is still waterlogged, I can see a groove in the emulsion. When the emulsion is completely dry, I can't see the groove any more. Sometimes a BLACK line remains on the film, but sometimes not.

I have looked for this groove on my film while the emulsion is still damp and haven't been able to see it, but I probably just didn't look hard enough or have the light in the right place. I have now seen both light and dark scratches on the same film (always at 19.5 mm +/- about 1 mm), when dry, viewed on a light box. I can see there is a physical scratch there when I use my 15X loupe and light is reflecting off the emulsion side of the film, but it is very faint. I wish I had a microscope. Whatever is causing this mark, it is probably a very subtle defect.

It makes me want to attach a 1/4" wide strip of very fine sand paper to black side of some 120 backing paper,19mm from the edge, and run it through the camera repeatedly until whatever is causing the scratch has been sanded away. I'm joking. At least for now.

 

[gone]

I've had better luck w/ this kind of problem by setting the camera in my lap on a cushion or pillow w/ the back open. Then, getting comfortable, I close my eyes and go over everything in the film gate, rollers, etc w/ my fingers, palms and fingernails. Tiny aberrations that might not be visible will usually show up this way.

 

[Eric Hiss]

Hello All,
I don't monitor this thread often so sorry for not posting more. I would like to comment a few things:

1) People who don't have problems don't generally post to the internet. The majority of Hy6 users are not posting here but there are a few loud voices certainly.
2) Problems do come up with these low volume hand built cameras but then when I talk to my camera friends it seems that a lot of Hasselblad and Leica cameras also need repairs and work. It's par for the course. I do shoot personally with a lot of gear - my X1D needed warranty service and so did my Leicas (all of them including my DMR).
3) All of the people who asked me for help got help, and many got warranty check or service at the factory. btw I'm not needed to get service organized since you can contact them directly, however I do act as a liaison. In at least one case of people posting to this thread that I know about no problems were found. ;-)
4) In another case with a 6060, I decided to test the equipment myself rather than having it sent directly to the factory. I also had no problems. It's hard to understand sometimes what is happening here.
5) Problems do occur, but please keep in mind that unauthorized work voids warranty - I think this is standard for most products but certainly true for the Rolleiflex items. Just saying...

After this thread was started and a few people were asking about 6060 film issues, I sent a 6060 film back to my independent service shop Key Camera Service and asked Mr. Feely, whom I trust, to check infinity focus, possible light leaks and film spacing issues and lines - basically all the issues I have read or heard about. He spent several hours and was very thorough. He has a Hy6 mod2 body and lenses which I lent him for service and is a good resource for problems with 6060 film backs. If you have a problem or think you have a problem with out of warranty 6060 film backs, he's a good option.

Infinity focus: I want to post a litte - maybe I already did? about this since it's come up a lot in this thread. He determined that the new film back I sent him had correct focus to infinity using his calibration instruments. He looked at how the factory achieves tension in the film reels and He advised that no user try to change the platten spacing themselves for several reasons: 1st, this isn't the correct way to adjust infinity focus issues. 2nd since it's difficult to get this set planar to the film plane without equipment and 3rd, the screws which hold in the platten are not going to lock in multiple times in multiple places and shouldn't be reused many times.

Lines on film: Over the 8 years I've been a dealer and all the years I've shot film, what I've learned is that if the scratches in film are being made in the camera you usually can feel the spot on the rollers or rails, but sometimes you can't see it. It doesn't really make sense that a roller would make a long line since it's moving and the film doesn't drag across it. If the roller doesn't roll then maybe but it's easy to check. I can't recall actually even one time where a new Hy6 or FX, FW, FT that I sold had this issue for real though I've seen it with other cameras. In one case a FX-N user was convinced that his camera was causing lines on the film - he shipped the camera back to me and I shot and processed a roll myself and found no lines. Hmm? He was a very experienced photographer but after getting the camera back from me he studied his processing harder and found the source. In my own personal experience I had one lab which caused scratches and made plenty during my own processing. Reels - how do you load? Do you squeegee your film after the wash? How do you cut and store the film after drying? What kind of permawash do you use? Is the film hard when you put it into sleeves?
​

 

[ic-racer]

Just to clarify a few things.
1) Since the camera can electronically adjust focal point, I figured the film back had mechanical adjustment too, and acted as such. (Though Rollei recommends not adjusting it.)
2) If my film back had a source of scratch, I'd send it back. But have not located anything on the camera or film back that matches the mark on my film.
3) Rollei USA has demonstrated excellent customer support to me.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have wanted one a Hy6 ever since I first heard of it. I was kind of waiting for my Rolleiflex 6008i to break down or wear out but that never happened. With COVID I was concerned DW Photo (current manufacturer of Hy6) would go under. So, when I found out that new 2020 cameras were available I snatched one up.

I remember 30 years ago when I got my Rolleiflex 3003, it was a little bigger than I thought (based on pictures and never seeing one in person).
It's a shame the medium format cameras and I have more popular. To me, seem to be the afternoon compromise between the flexibility of 35mm cameras and the image quality of large format cameras. Well, as long as I keep my Hasselblads and their Carl Zeiss lenses well-maintained, I should be OK for the rest of my life time.
The Hy6 was the opposite. It was SMAlLER than I expected based on the pictures!

For those not familiar with these cameras, the Hy6 is on the LEFT and it is 6x6cm format. The 3003 is on the right and it is 35mm format.

View attachment 253801

 

[Dave Krueger]

For anyone who has taken the time to wade through it, this thread speaks for itself. I know that the problems are real and the solutions are real, but everyone gets to make up their own mind.

 

[Eric Hiss]

Moderator's Edit
The 6008 takes many of the same lenses as the Hy6 and is capable of the same image quality. In fact I won 1st place in the fine art pro category with work I shot with the 6008AF and 90mm lens - now a long time ago. I don't think I could have done that work with the V or the Mamiya RZ. Maybe the 6008 a better choice for you?

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

My Hy6 was perfect while I owned it. A real pleasure to use and the images were stunning. When I did interact with DW, service was fast and not too expensive. I needed to invest more in my lab so I had to sell out of the system. I’m hoping to pick up another at some point.

Moderator's Edit
If you have a camera under warranty you fix or replace it. You don’t dick around with it and post endless tests on a forum. The fact that DW could not reproduce the issues and that the camera was not returned or replaced tells me everything I need to know.

If you have the means, don’t hesitate to buy a Hy6 Mod 2, and if you don’t, find a 6008. It’s a fabulous system with the best lenses I’ve used in my life.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

I'm just going to make a statement here as this thread shows how polarized things can get, especially when something like this Hy6, that goes for just south of 10 grand for basic kit, is the hero and the enemy all at once.

I do not own it, nor will I ever, have no idea what it handles like and what quirks it has (and surely it does, like every other camera).

When a company, any company, decides to market a product that is priced for successful "dentists", it MUST have zero problems right out of the box. If I wanted to charge that much for something that can easily be matched function/image quality wise for far less, I'd go out of my way to ensure each one is tested, then again, and then one more time before it is boxed up. Then, if for some unbeknown reasons, a lemon slips by this multilevel QC department, I get mad at myself, look for a reason why and how it could have possibly happened, all while communicate with the unfortunate owner, kiss his feet and do whatever to make it right.

Reading this story it really makes me pause for how have we all gotten this low with manufacturing & customer service, that all that primarily counts is profit. Why is it now all about how we sell something and not what we sell?

And I'll finish with this cliché : camera doe snot make winning images, never has, never will. If it does indeed, one who aimed it should never be credited with making that "winning" one. In other words, I view it as worst salesman pitch to praise a camera because there was a great image made with it. Then again, we're talking successful "dentist" buying one, so it does not matter what we sell, but how.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I definitely regret coming back to this thread and will once again unsubscribe. I suggest anyone interested in the Rolleiflex SLR system to ignore it as well. Just one big FUD fest at this point which forum posts tend to be. I'll remember to deal some of my equipment vendors that I'm buying my next piece of lab gear in escrow and getting lawyers involved...I'm sure that'll go over well!

Here are some images I made with the amazing 180mm 2.8 PQ on RDP100. If I recall correctly I just used aperture program and shot away. The camera tends to nail exposures on chrome even in difficult lighting. The Schneider lenses are IMHO the reason to get into a 600x or Hy6 camera.

 

[NortheastPhotographic]

I'm just going to make a statement here as this thread shows how polarized things can get, especially when something like this Hy6, that goes for just south of 10 grand for basic kit, is the hero and the enemy all at once.

I do not own it, nor will I ever, have no idea what it handles like and what quirks it has (and surely it does, like every other camera).

When a company, any company, decides to market a product that is priced for successful "dentists", it MUST have zero problems right out of the box. If I wanted to charge that much for something that can easily be matched function/image quality wise for far less, I'd go out of my way to ensure each one is tested, then again, and then one more time before it is boxed up. Then, if for some unbeknown reasons, a lemon slips by this multilevel QC department, I get mad at myself, look for a reason why and how it could have possibly happened, all while communicate with the unfortunate owner, kiss his feet and do whatever to make it right.

Reading this story it really makes me pause for how have we all gotten this low with manufacturing & customer service, that all that primarily counts is profit. Why is it now all about how we sell something and not what we sell?

And I'll finish with this cliché : camera doe snot make winning images, never has, never will. If it does indeed, one who aimed it should never be credited with making that "winning" one. In other words, I view it as worst salesman pitch to praise a camera because there was a great image made with it. Then again, we're talking successful "dentist" buying one, so it does not matter what we sell, but how.

Talk to people who own expensive cars about how problem-free they are is all I have to say about that. The more expensive and low volume something is, the more likely you're going to have one issue or another, even out of the box.

 

[Huss]

I definitely regret coming back to this thread and will once again unsubscribe. I suggest anyone interested in the Rolleiflex SLR system to ignore it as well. Just one big FUD fest at this point which forum posts tend to be. I'll remember to deal some of my equipment vendors that I'm buying my next piece of lab gear in escrow and getting lawyers involved...I'm sure that'll go over well!

Here are some images I made with the amazing 180mm 2.8 PQ on RDP100. If I recall correctly I just used aperture program and shot away. The camera tends to nail exposures on chrome even in difficult lighting. The Schneider lenses are IMHO the reason to get into a 600x or Hy6 camera.

View attachment 293177 View attachment 293178

I'm here for the pics.

 

[MattKing]

Talk to people who own expensive cars about how problem-free they are is all I have to say about that. The more expensive and low volume something is, the more likely you're going to have one issue or another, even out of the box.

The same applies to RVs.
We have friends who purchased a brand new RV - a highly priced one - and the dealer pre-booked several appointments with them because they knew that several adjustments and a few part replacements would be necessary.
If you buy something like a Hy6, you do so with different sorts of expectations than high volume products. If you expect something different, you should shop elsewhere.