Rockland Colloid - Should I bother?

removed account4 · Sep 17, 2017

DonF said:
Rockland recommends the egg white route, but I have never tried AG+ on glass

.

thanks don !
when i originally was experimenting with subbing plates years ago i couldn't get egg whites to work...
do you have a link to the place on the rockland site where they recommend this?
all i remember i had lots of yolks and a gooey sticky mess that
didn't bind with the gelatin in the emulsion.
they probably don't use the same recipe ( one for albumin prints i found in
an old photographic annual that i used and gave up on ..

john

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2017

Don, years of experience by myself and Mark Osterman indicate that a subbing layer for plates (and indeed most coatings) is not needed and that KRLF with hardener causes no problems with hand coated plates. Perhaps it is the food grade gelatin you are using. We used photograde gelatin.

PE

removed account4 · Sep 17, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
KRLF with hardener

hi ron
what is KRLF
kodak regular fixer with hardener?

and for what its worth, i have used food grade gelatin
since the 1980s with rockland products no problems. i found a box of old
plates a few days ago, they look exactly like they did
when they were made ...

thanks !
john

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2017

Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer, (KRLF) is the liquid Ammonium Hypo version of F5, the formula for which is well known.

There are problems with the large variation in food grade gelatins, including Bloom Index and hardening capability as well as additives.

PE

Nodda Duma · Sep 18, 2017

KRLF with Hardener works great for dry plates as well!

removed account4 · Sep 18, 2017

Photo Engineer said:
Kodak Rapid Liquid Fixer, (KRLF) is the liquid Ammonium Hypo version of F5, the formula for which is well known.

There are problems with the large variation in food grade gelatins, including Bloom Index and hardening capability as well as additives.

PE

thanks for the info on the fixer ! i didn't remember the abbreviation but
knew the fixer !
i have been using either the old professional sodium thiosulfate ( with hardener )
since i somehow had a bag purchased and never used, or sprint speed fixer with hardener added ...

i guess i've been lucky with knox, never a problem ( have used it with cyanotypes as well )

knocking wood

Photo Engineer · Sep 18, 2017

Not everyone has good luck making images with Knox gelatin. I would say that that is one of the areas of the most complaints/questions both Mark Osterman and I get.

PE

hoffy · Sep 18, 2017

Its good to see this thread pop up. It reminds me that I have a 3 year old Rockaloid kit sitting in my cupboard at home!

Could anyone tell me if the secret sauce part of the developer would be OK?

DonF · Sep 19, 2017

jnanian said:
do you have a link to the place on the rockland site where they recommend this?

I'm very sorry, I was mistaken on this. In the instruction sheet for AG+ on the Rockland site, they describe gelatin subbing for vitreous surfaces using Knox food-grade gelatin. Against their advice, I tried it on aluminum trophy plates to very poor results. Nowhere do they suggest egg whites for gelatin emulsion.

"Gelatin pre-coat (subbing) for glass and glazed ceramics: You will need some powdered laundry detergent and some unflavored gelatin such as the Knox brand. These items are sold at larger grocery stores. Scrub the glass or ceramic with hot water and powdered detergent until the rinse water does not bead up but leaves a uniform film when drained off. At this stage, the glass is chemically-clean. Sprinkle 1 level teaspoon (5 grams) of gelatin onto the surface of one cup (250 cc) of cold water. Allow it to swell for 5 minutes or more, then heat to melt the gelatin. Pour some of the hot solution over the chemically-cleaned glass. Drain completely and dry thoroughly before coating with emulsion."

Best,

Don

removed account4 · Sep 19, 2017

thanks don

hi hoffy ...

is it the pre mixed stuff that is liquid or the powder-kit?
if it is the liquid it the part a is dektol and probably dark and no good,
the powder .. i am guessing as long as nothing is clumped it is OK ..
look at donF's recipe in this thread if your dektol is toast use enough
dektol for 8oz. in the rockland kit ... my memory might be off, but
i think a gallon of developer is made with a quart of stock ( 1:4 )
have fun!
john

hoffy · Sep 19, 2017

I haven't dug it out yet, but yes, I'm talking the liquid.

removed account4 · Sep 19, 2017

hoffy said:
I haven't dug it out yet, but yes, I'm talking the liquid.

i think it is supposed to be almost clear / "straw" colored ( the part a / dektol )
im not sure what the other stuff is supposed to look like, i imagine cause it is fixer and thiocyanate and sodium carbonate, it is clear?

good luck !
john

ps if you do glass plates instead of black metal, they are greenish ( normal ) ..
metal isn't green ..

DonF · Sep 21, 2017

jnanian said:
i think it is supposed to be almost clear / "straw" colored ( the part a / dektol )
im not sure what the other stuff is supposed to look like, i imagine cause it is fixer and thiocyanate and sodium carbonate, it is clear?

good luck !
john

ps if you do glass plates instead of black metal, they are greenish ( normal ) ..
metal isn't green ..

The Ammonium Thiocyanate stock solution is completely clear. The dry stuff clumps like crazy and must be broken up with an awl or ice pick. Dissolving it in water is highly endothermic. Frost almost forms on the beaker! The Dektol is clear when mixed. No Sodium Carbonate is in the Rockland recipe. There is Sodium Sulfate (NOT Sulfite!!), which is also clear when mixed.

The final addition of Thiocyanate results in a strong Ammonium smell. The solution should be room temperature when the addition is done.

The mixed developer turns the color of strong black tea after a few weeks. Air in the bottle accelerates the process. I just discard it when it looks like that. I store in an amber jar in the dark.

Rockland says to "ripen" the developer overnight, but I have used it after only a few hours from mixing with no issues.

The developer tray develops a sludge after a few plates, depending upon the density of the image. I replace the developer frequently. The sludge tends to stick to the tray surfaces. If not cleaned between plates, it can cause metallic stains on the plate.

Don

markfitzgerald · Feb 24, 2018

DonF said:
The Ammonium Thiocyanate stock solution is completely clear. The dry stuff clumps like crazy and must be broken up with an awl or ice pick. Dissolving it in water is highly endothermic. Frost almost forms on the beaker! The Dektol is clear when mixed. No Sodium Carbonate is in the Rockland recipe. There is Sodium Sulfate (NOT Sulfite!!), which is also clear when mixed.

The final addition of Thiocyanate results in a strong Ammonium smell. The solution should be room temperature when the addition is done.

The mixed developer turns the color of strong black tea after a few weeks. Air in the bottle accelerates the process. I just discard it when it looks like that. I store in an amber jar in the dark.

Rockland says to "ripen" the developer overnight, but I have used it after only a few hours from mixing with no issues.

The developer tray develops a sludge after a few plates, depending upon the density of the image. I replace the developer frequently. The sludge tends to stick to the tray surfaces. If not cleaned between plates, it can cause metallic stains on the plate.

Don

I must be doing something wrong. I followed your recipe, but all I get when I try to develop it is a tan-colored piece of glass. I ordered the chems from ArtCraft, and mixed it up to your specs. I also tried it with a dry plate made by jason lane, and got the same thing. A very faint visible image but other than that, just a blank. If I develop the same plate in a 1:31 L-110, I get a nice negative, but I can't seem to get the positive developer to do anything. It does smell like ammonia though!

DonF · Feb 24, 2018

markfitzgerald said:
I must be doing something wrong. I followed your recipe, but all I get when I try to develop it is a tan-colored piece of glass. I ordered the chems from ArtCraft, and mixed it up to your specs. I also tried it with a dry plate made by jason lane, and got the same thing. A very faint visible image but other than that, just a blank. If I develop the same plate in a 1:31 L-110, I get a nice negative, but I can't seem to get the positive developer to do anything. It does smell like ammonia though!

After final mixing in of the thiocyanate solution, it should sit 12 hours or so to "season" (per Rockland). I have only used it for tintypes on blackened metal plates, never on glass. If your're attempting ambrotypes on glass with gelatin AGPlus emulsion, I would think it would work, but have not tried this. I mixed up a batch a few weeks back and it worked fine, though. It seems to keep a few weeks in a filled and tightly stoppered bottle in the dark.

Best,

Don

removed account4 · Feb 24, 2018

markfitzgerald said:
I must be doing something wrong. I followed your recipe, but all I get when I try to develop it is a tan-colored piece of glass. I ordered the chems from ArtCraft, and mixed it up to your specs. I also tried it with a dry plate made by jason lane, and got the same thing. A very faint visible image but other than that, just a blank. If I develop the same plate in a 1:31 L-110, I get a nice negative, but I can't seem to get the positive developer to do anything. It does smell like ammonia though!

hi markfitzgerald

if you put your glass plate infront of something BLACK you might see your postive image.
what happens with the silver gelatin tintype on metal or glass or paper ( black ) is the following
the image develops and fogs, and the thiocyaniate bleach lightens the blacks to be lighter as
the whites ( clear ) show the black of the plate. so ... if you are doing your exposures on clear glass
or something that isn't black you won't really get the same effect.

i've been meaning to do don's recipe too, but life has gotten in the way ..

DonF · Feb 24, 2018

I agree! The plate should appear as a normal negative against a light background (with less density) and a positive when front lit with a black background. I read that the thiocyanate alters the development process such that very fine reflective particles of silver are formed rather than the dark-appearing tangled threads of silver as in a negative. Dunno’,but it does work...
and looks wonderful when the stars align and work in your favor.

Best,

Don

removed account4 · Feb 24, 2018

i forgot to mention ... ..

at least with the rockland developer ( as i said i haven't used don's )
reversals on GLASS have a funky green hue to them, if you
have ever developed azo paper in dektol or ansco 130, it is
the same sort of greenish hue ... the metal ones don't look greenish

( a link to greenish hue glass reversals
http://www.nanianphoto.com/blog/4-glass-plates-then-4-paper-prints/4plate1-186-sm/
if you click on the image you can see it better ... )

markfitzgerald · Feb 25, 2018

I did let it sit over night before use. I've used the "real" rockland kit before and had some limited success, but this isn't a reversal issue where it needs to be on a black background. it just never clears. It looks like a spudgy mess. Here's a sample of a Jason Lane Dry Plate (pre coated gelatin). After nothing came up after about 10 minutes, I poured some working strength l-110 over it and left it for a couple of minutes while I cleaned up the rest of the trays . So there is/was definitely something exposed on the plate. I was doubting myself for a bit thinking maybe I didn't expose it. Maybe I'll start over with another batch. I do still have some of the Ammonium Thiocyanate stock solution so I should have three more attempts at it.

markfitzgerald · Mar 11, 2018

markfitzgerald said:
I did let it sit over night before use. I've used the "real" rockland kit before and had some limited success, but this isn't a reversal issue where it needs to be on a black background. it just never clears. It looks like a spudgy mess. Here's a sample of a Jason Lane Dry Plate (pre coated gelatin). After nothing came up after about 10 minutes, I poured some working strength l-110 over it and left it for a couple of minutes while I cleaned up the rest of the traysView attachment 196091 . So there is/was definitely something exposed on the plate. I was doubting myself for a bit thinking maybe I didn't expose it. Maybe I'll start over with another batch. I do still have some of the Ammonium Thiocyanate stock solution so I should have three more attempts at it.

I wonder if the issue is that I’m trying to use liquid light? I am getting nothing. The stuff just stays tan in the developer. I did overheat the bottle a bit when I was transferring to smalller containers. I’m sure that didn’t help...

removed account4 · Mar 11, 2018

are you using regular liquid light or vc or the ag+ or are you still using jason's plates ?
if you are using liquid light doulbe coat your glass, that is the advice i was given by the
guy who founded the company, the ag+ has more silver in it so it gives a stronger image
he suggested double coating would be better for non ag+ emulsions.
if you suspect your emulsion is bad, coat a scrap of paper and put a penny on it and turn the lights on
and put it in regular developer ( dektol type developer )and see if the image is white and black
liquid emulsion is pretty slow ... i've used some that was like 15 years old and gotten it to produce images it needed
more light and stronger developer ( and fixer wtih hardener ! )
you can make a test strip with a regular piece of paper to ID your exposure time too ... just like under an enlarger..
maybe you are under exposing / over exposing your image ..

elocinexx · Mar 26, 2018

I'm looking to start this process, but I was leaning towards liquid light and tin plates (from another company) instead of getting the kits. From what I have read, liquid light can be developed/fixed in normal everyday chemistry. But has anyone tried it with Don's recipe for developer? I am curious if it would yield better results to use the Dektol combo rather than just D76. Anyone have experience with this? My biggest fear is having a bad chemical rxn if the liquid light is not compatible with Dektol and Ammonium Thiocyanate. Any advice would be appreciated. I have yet to order the liquid light or Ag+ so I am open to both.

removed account4 · Mar 26, 2018

i haven't used don's recipe yet. .. its on my to-do list ...
read the info on using other metal plates, you might have to treat them
before you use them because from what i remember rockland does something
to them so the emulsion adheres ( sorry i can't remember what it is they do ).
liquid light / ag+ or whatever emulsion you will be using is paper emulsion so dektol
or any print developer will probably work better than d76. without don's chemistry (or docklands)
normal every day chemistry will give you a negative if exposed in-camera, the special developer
fogs, and bleaches the image... if you are enlarging or making contact prints onto the metal regular chemistry
is the way to go, and you will have an image ( postiive ) image on the plate.
have fuN!

elocinexx · Mar 26, 2018

Thanks for the info jnanian! The plates I ordered are "'Modern Collodion' Tintype Plates" that BH carries. They are advertised as being idea for wet plate and tintypes / alt. processes. I am hoping that they will be okay. You 15 for the same price as 10 (with the shipping) of the Rockaloid kind. I was leaning towards liquid light because from what I have read so far, it can be applied to a larger variety of surfaces. Maybe I am wrong and Ag+ can be applied the same way too? Also, is there anything special for disposal of the Dektol/Ammonium Thiocyanate developer?

removed account4 · Mar 26, 2018

elocinexx said:
Thanks for the info jnanian! The plates I ordered are "'Modern Collodion' Tintype Plates" that BH carries. They are advertised as being idea for wet plate and tintypes / alt. processes. I am hoping that they will be okay. You 15 for the same price as 10 (with the shipping) of the Rockaloid kind. I was leaning towards liquid light because from what I have read so far, it can be applied to a larger variety of surfaces. Maybe I am wrong and Ag+ can be applied the same way too? Also, is there anything special for disposal of the Dektol/Ammonium Thiocyanate developer?

hi again

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rockland-colloid-should-i-bother.112558/page-3#post-1817235
donF speaks about havng adhesion issues with trophy aluminum plates. i am guessing that maybe what you
have might be similar but a different "brand" ? he solved his problem by cleaning the plates well and then putting a layer of gelatin on the plate as a sub layer/
photoengineer warns about food grade gelatin, you might contact photographers formulary or artcraft chemical or bostick and sullivan
and purchase some 250 / photo grade gelatin. its pretty inexpensive .

i have my developer (used) in a haul-drum. not sure what your recovery situation might be. its best to do a little research for your area about
what you use and how it can be disposed. i'm also trying to figure out a non-thiocyanate developer. cause id rather not use harsh chemistry

good luck !

Rockland Colloid - Should I bother?

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