Reports of (Colour) Kodachrome Home Processing Emerge from Sydney

[Steve Smith]

unfortunately, by the time any sort of home-processing becomes viable, all the existing film will be hopelessly out of date and magenta-shifted. >:-/

I have used some K64 which was twenty five years out of date and always kept at room temperature and all it had was a slightly cooler look than normal so I don't think we need to worry too much about it.


Steve.

 

[kevs]

Kevs;

Steve has proven what I have known all along, and that is that Kodachrome can be processed at home. In your lab. If you refuse to acknowledge that, then, well............. IDK what to say.

PE

Ron, I'm aware of your previous posts about hand-processing; I find it interesting that it's now been done by someone outside Kodak's sphere. I'm just watching this from the sidelines with no Kodachrome to expose or process, no home lab and no intention of trying it, so I'll just shut up now.

Cheers,
kevs

 

[mopar_guy]

The Morse G-3 Tanks would require approximately 10 times the volume of chemistry and with the cost of these chemicals it would be a stupid idea.

 

[Worker 11811]

The Morse G-3 Tanks would require approximately 10 times the volume of chemistry and with the cost of these chemicals it would be a stupid idea.

They are also known for producing uneven, unpredictable development because of the film being wound on itself as it is on the reels. The user must crank the film continuosly, at an even speed to get reasonable results. They are finicky things.

That's the reason my tank sits in the closet. I'm not in a hurry to get it out.

The Morse tanks are designed to develop 100 ft. lenths of film. That's why they hold so much liquid.
I was considering the idea of filling the empty space with plastic bottles or something to take up some of the space.

I'm still not in a hurry to get the thing out.

As I said in the beginning, this is all just conceptual thinking.
Thinking doesn't hurt anything. More people should think before they act, anyway.

 

[michaelbsc]

They are also known for producing uneven, unpredictable development because of the film being wound on itself as it is on the reels. The user must crank the film continuosly, at an even speed to get reasonable results. They are finicky things.

That's the reason my tank sits in the closet. I'm not in a hurry to get it out.

The Morse tanks are designed to develop 100 ft. lenths of film. That's why they hold so much liquid.
I was considering the idea of filling the empty space with plastic bottles or something to take up some of the space.

I'm still not in a hurry to get the thing out.

As I said in the beginning, this is all just conceptual thinking.
Thinking doesn't hurt anything. More people should think before they act, anyway.

Frankly I thought about one of these some months back as well. Mine has the window for reversal exposure. but I sure didn't think of the mobius loop idea. That's not a bad idea at all.

Mine also sits idle.

 

[michaelbsc]

Yes i do completley agree whee you are coming from. However i do feel sorry for those that never got their film to Dwaynes in time, i was recently contacted by the person who has made a whole film dedicated to the space shuttle and its all shot on kodachrome http://www.shuttlelaunchfilm.com/
He has films that he has not had processed and needs them done to complete his film. He is keeping them frozen in the mean time.
It would be great to help such people out, its worth mentioning that Steve Mccurry has kept a stock of kodachrome waiting to be shot in his freezer for the day that processing may happen again.
Ive got 15 rolls in my freezer that i bought from a photographer cheaply that he never got to shoot, im annoyed i never got the chance to shoot kodachrome myself.
At least its given me an interest in analog photography again and im stocking up on as much ektachrome as i can afford before thats too late.

Hell I've got a memorial brick of 120 in the freezer that I just couldn't thaw.

 

[holmburgers]

The "Tough" Questions

The pink elephant in the room, to my mind, is the coupler chemistry used. So far there's been no mention of it by Stephen, though much more curiously, no one has asked.

Is this something you'd be willing to share?

I've noticed many times in the past that Mssr. Frizza will achieve things that just blow people away here, and he's always quick to point out that none of it's magic; it's a result of actual work, understanding the process and simply doing it. I greatly respect this, and it's model behavior in an internet community that's all too content with typing thoughts instead of doing actions. (*guilty as charged*) That's probably why we don't see him so often either.

With that in mind I wouldn't expect to have the whole process divulged just for asking, but I do think that if there is no incentive to keep it "proprietary" (and perhaps there is) then the details might be useful to someone who actually wishes to give this a go at some point.

On the other hand, I can understand how sharing it might cheapen your hard work. Hell, at least Daguerre got a life-time pension for giving away his process...

-----------------------------------
p.s. On "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)", starting around post #3010 there is a discussion of color developers.

 

[Stephen Frizza]

The pink elephant in the room, to my mind, is the coupler chemistry used. So far there's been no mention of it by Stephen, though much more curiously, no one has asked.

Is this something you'd be willing to share?

I've noticed many times in the past that Mssr. Frizza will achieve things that just blow people away here, and he's always quick to point out that none of it's magic; it's a result of actual work, understanding the process and simply doing it. I greatly respect this, and it's model behavior in an internet community that's all too content with typing thoughts instead of doing actions. (*guilty as charged*) That's probably why we don't see him so often either.

With that in mind I wouldn't expect to have the whole process divulged just for asking, but I do think that if there is no incentive to keep it "proprietary" (and perhaps there is) then the details might be useful to someone who actually wishes to give this a go at some point.

On the other hand, I can understand how sharing it might cheapen your hard work. Hell, at least Daguerre got a life-time pension for giving away his process...

-----------------------------------
p.s. On "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)", starting around post #3010 there is a discussion of color developers.

I havent gone into extensive detail simply because anything i write will pale in relation to the wealth of information already available online about every aspect of the kodachrome process. The extensive information on the chemistry, the processing and the film can be found in public domain by kodak. For interest this patent which is wonderfully half the work of Photo Engineer is here....

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3658525.pdf

alternatively something more primitive you can try is....



If you want to know some info about the processing steps....

Processing Steps as per kodaks direction....

Backing Removal Solution
The alkaline backing removal solution converts the rem-jet
antihalation backing on the film base into a water-soluble
form. This backing is removed in the backing removal wash.

Backing Removal Wash
This wash performs two functions:
1. It removes the backing removal solution from the film.
2. It completely removes the solubilized antihalation
backing from the base by a combination of water
action and mechanical buffing.

First Developer Solution
In the first developer solution, the exposed silver halide
grains (latent images) are reduced to metallic silver by the
action of Phenidone* and hydroquinone developers:
The resulting silver grains form three superimposed
negative images of the original scene, one image in each of
the red-, green-, and blue-sensitive emulsion layers. The
remaining (unexposed and undeveloped) silver halide in the
three emulsion layers constitutes the positive (reversal)
images that are later converted to full-color images in the
color-development phases of the process.

First Developer Wash
This wash stops the development and removes the first
developer solution from the film.

Red Reexposure Printing Step
The red reexposure printing step completely exposes all of
the remaining silver halide in the red-sensitive (bottom)
emulsion layer so that the silver halide develops completely
in the cyan developer solution. At the same time, exposure
of any remaining silver halide in the blue- and greensensitive
layers must be avoided to prevent unwanted cyan
dye development in these layers. This selective exposure is
obtained by printing through the base side of the film, using
a properly selected red glass filter in the light beam. The
green- and blue-sensitive emulsion layers have no
intentional sensitivity to red light and should therefore
remain unaffected by the red-light exposure. However, some
green-sensitive emulsion layers do have a slight, but
significant, red sensitivity, and accurate control of the red
printing intensity is necessary.

Cyan Developer Solution
In the cyan developer solution, a positive silver image is
formed in the red-sensitive layer by the action of the color
developing agent on the silver halide that was exposed
during the red printing step Simultaneously, the resulting
oxidized color developer combines with the cyan coupler to
form a positive cyan dye image. This image is deposited
only in the red-sensitive emulsion layer.If any red-sensitive halide
is left undeveloped, unwanted dyes will be produced in the red-sensitive
layer during later.

Cyan Developer Wash
This wash stops cyan development and removes the cyan
developer solution from the film.

Blue Reexposure Printing Step
In this printing step, all the remaining silver halide in the
blue-sensitive top emulsion layer is exposed so that the silver
halide develops completely in the yellow developer solution.
At the same time, exposure of the remaining silver halide in
the green-sensitive layer (which is also blue-sensitive) must
be avoided to prevent unwanted yellow dye development in
the green-sensitive layer. This selective exposure is obtained
by printing through the emulsion surface of the film, using a
properly selected blue glass filter in the light beam. The
yellow filter layer between the blue- and green-sensitive
layers limits passage of blue light from the emulsion side.
However, the filter layer does not protect the green-sensitive
layer from any stray blue printing light that may strike the
base of the film.
An optimum printing intensity for each printer should be
established and then carefully controlled. Overprinting can
result in unwanted exposure and subsequent yellow
development of silver halide in the green-sensitive
(magenta) layer. Underprinting leaves some of the silver
halide in the yellow layer unexposed and subject to chemical
exposure and development in the magenta developer. Either
situation causes some degradation in quality.
The selected levels of reexposure for both the red and blue
printing steps are based on the results of actual photographic
tests including each of the film types that are processed.
These printer settings are computer controlled. For anything
other than a lamp failure, call Kodak for service. Processing
film with an inoperative printer produces unacceptable
customer film.

Yellow Developer Solution
In the yellow developer solution, a positive silver image is
formed in the blue-sensitive layer by the action of the color
developing agent on the silver halide that was exposed
during the blue printing operation. Simultaneously, a
positive yellow dye image is formed by the reaction between
the oxidized color developing agent and the yellow coupler.
See the section, “Cyan Developer Solution” on page 3-2 for
the generic equations.
During the yellow development step, the blue-sensitive
layer must be developed to completion while unwanted
yellow development (fogging) of the green-sensitive layer is
kept to a minimum. Any undeveloped silver halide in the
blue-sensitive layer is developed in the magenta developer
solution, causing magenta dye contamination in the yellow
layer. Conversely, fogging of the green-sensitive layer
during yellow development causes yellow dye
contamination in the magenta layer and a significant
reduction in the magenta dye yield. A normal Process
K-14M yellow developer solution provides the required
yellow and magenta separation.
Normally, all of the exposed silver halide in the redsensitive
layer would be developed in either the first or the
cyan developer solution. If any exposed silver halide in this
layer remains undeveloped after the cyan developer solution,
it is developed in the yellow developer solution, and results
in yellow dye contamination in the cyan layer.

Yellow Developer Wash
This wash stops the yellow development and removes the
yellow developer solution from the film.

Magenta Developer Solution
At this stage in the processing sequence, only the greensensitive
layer should contain any unexposed silver halide.
Therefore, selective reexposure is unnecessary. The reversal
agent in the magenta developer solution nucleates
(chemically reexposes) all the remaining silver halide.
During magenta development, a positive silver image is
formed in the green-sensitive layer by the action of the color
developing agent on the silver halide. Simultaneously, a
positive magenta dye image is formed by the reaction of the
oxidized color developing agent with the magenta coupler.
See the section, “Cyan Developer Solution” on page 3-2.
Magenta development is somewhat less critical than cyan
and yellow development, because if the preceding steps were
properly carried out, no silver halide should remain in the
red- and blue-sensitive layers. Therefore, no unwanted
magenta dye development should occur. However, if any
silver halide is present in the red- or blue-sensitive layers, it
is nucleated and developed in the magenta developer
solution, producing magenta dye contamination of the cyan
or yellow dye image.
The silver halide in the green-sensitive layer is the most
difficult to develop completely, and incomplete
development results in an inadequate magenta dye image,
especially in the maximum-density areas

Magenta Developer Wash
This wash removes the magenta developer solution from the
film. This is the most critical of all the wash steps because it
is more difficult to remove the components of the magenta
developer solution.

Conditioner
The conditioner prepares the metallic silver developed in the
first and color developers for oxidation to silver halide in the
bleach step. An oxidized conditioner solution is ineffective
and may cause silver to be retained in processed film.

Bleach
The bleach converts the metallic silver back to silver halide;
the silver halide is later removed in the fixer.
During bleaching, iron III is reduced to iron II. Iron II
must be converted back to iron III by aeration so that
satisfactory bleaching can continue. Aerate the bleach by
bubbling air through it.
Inadequate aeration, underreplenishment, low
temperature, and over-dilution of the bleach by conditioner
can cause silver retention, which causes all densities to
increase. The silver may be removed by bleaching and fixing
the film again, if necessary.

Fixer
The fixer converts all of the silver halide into soluble silver
compounds. Most of the silver compounds are removed in
the fixer and can be recovered.
Underreplenishment, or fixer dilution, causes silver halide
retention, increased blue density, or yellow D-min. The
silver halide may be removed by bleaching and fixing the
film again.

Final Wash
The final wash removes chemicals remaining in the film
emulsion. Complete washing at this stage is important for
image stability; any chemicals remaining in the film may
deteriorate the image dyes.

Final Rinse
The final rinse contains a wetting agent to reduce water
spotting and provide uniform drying. To help prevent water
spots and streaks, replace the final rinse solution daily

THATS A BASIC OVERIEW OF THE PROCESS AS DESCRIBED BY KODAK.

and here is a chart outlining the times and temps etc of each processing step...... (when hand processing certain times like the rem jet removal and wash time will need to be adjusted)



And any other detail under the sun about kodachrome from the way the film is made to the way a K-lab machine works can be found online in the Z-50 tech pubs, there is also the Klab user manuals etc...kodak have openly available everything and anything you want to know. I'm not going to re write the ins and outs of publications that in common knowledge already exist.

 

[Nzoomed]

I havent gone into extensive detail simply because anything i write will pale in relation to the wealth of information already available online about every aspect of the kodachrome process. The extensive information on the chemistry, the processing and the film can be found in public domain by kodak. For interest this patent which is wonderfully half the work of Photo Engineer is here....

And any other detail under the sun about kodachrome from the way the film is made to the way a K-lab machine works can be found online in the Z-50 tech pubs, there is also the Klab user manuals etc...kodak have openly available everything and anything you want to know. I'm not going to re write the ins and outs of publications that in common knowledge already exist.

Thats correct.
For this very reason ive created this wiki at http://kodachromia.wikia.com with the help of others from the kodachrome project.
Its main intention is to keep all this relative information to K-14 central to make it easier to sort out and access.
There is very little on the k-14 process here at present, but i hope all the pages of data can eventually be organised and arranged on the wiki in an easy to use manner.
When i get some time i will get round to publishing some of this on the wiki, but in the meantime Steve, feel free to add your documentation there, i will give you full administrative access to the wiki.

 

[ricardo12458]

I have used some K64 which was twenty five years out of date and always kept at room temperature and all it had was a slightly cooler look than normal so I don't think we need to worry too much about it.


Steve.

Which brings me to this question:

How does a non-substantive colour reversal film get shifts in colour with age if the colour dyes are not added until processing?

I have ~10-15 rolls of Kodachrome (K-14) dating from ~1982-1998.

Thanks
R

 

[Photo Engineer]

All film emulsions change with time. The shift has nothing to do with the dye forming reaction itself. It does not even matter with regular color films.

This is why B&W paper and film change!

PE

 

[ricardo12458]

All film emulsions change with time. The shift has nothing to do with the dye forming reaction itself. It does not even matter with regular color films.

This is why B&W paper and film change!

PE

Ohhhhhhhhhh.

That makes sense; any fog already present on the film will cause the dye forming reaction to go AWOL and render a different colour, dependent on which colour-sensitive layer of the film is fogged? (with regards to Kodachrome)

-R

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes. And it is far more complex than there is room on APUG to give the total answer!

PE

 

[Danielle]

Sorry that I don't know half the tech some of you are talking about but I wanted to say something after reading most of the posts in this thread.

Kodachrome was gone before I had a chance to try it. What I didn't really see addressed in this thread is how in hell does one make at least a kodachrome like film, because obviously we aren't getting any! I completely admire that the k-14 process has been replicated though, at least in most part to get a result... thats great. Fantastic job.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Kodachrome film is a B&W film with at least 9 different emulsions sensitive to Red, Green and Blue light and these emulsions are able to tell them apart and reproduce the original colors. The coatings are very thin to give good sharpness and the emulsions are very fine grained but still give good speed and grain. The coating is so complex than only Kodak remained active in this field even though Fuji once made a compatible film, as did Konica in Japan.

PE

 

[holmburgers]

Thanks for posting that stuff Stephen.

 

[Danielle]

Thanks.

So basically its good luck trying to make a film like that. Handy to know. 9 emulsions wow.

 

[Photo Engineer]

C41 films are more complex than that!

PE

 

[michaelbsc]

C41 films are more complex than that!

PE

Correct me if I am wrong, but in the giant Kodachrome thread didn't we discuss taking three shots with a tri-color separation on panchro film, then processing the three emulsions as the three layers in Kodachrome, and placing them in registration to create a full color transparency.

Hence my original interest in the one shot camera.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Yes we did Michael, and in several other threads as well! This has come up over and over again. It does work and was one route to making color transparencies about 100 years ago.

PE

 

[Steve Smith]

didn't we discuss taking three shots with a tri-color separation on panchro film, then processing the three emulsions as the three layers in Kodachrome, and placing them in registration to create a full color transparency.

Not quite the same thing but still of interest: (there was a url link here which no longer exists)



Steve.

 

[hrst]

Magnificent! Any chance of copy-pasting everything posted on Facebook here? In things like these, reviving dying information etc., I believe in "open source".

Hey, it would be simple to build a very small re-exposure device. It would include a small stepper motor to advance the film strips at a constant, adjustable speed, and selectable red/blue LED light source very close to the point where the film is driven from. This way, the exposure can be controlled to very high precision with very small lab space requirements and easy&quick operation, with no limit for film length whatsoever. I bet there are many electronic/mechanical tinkerers like me at APUG who could do this.

 

[hrst]

Here, to elaborate on the re-exp device mechanical design.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Either one would probably work.

Remember that the top two layers are not red sensitive and so the top two layers would not be very sensitive to leakage. Then again, the bottom two layers cannot see blue light but are sensitive to it so that might be a consideration there.

PE

 

[Nzoomed]

Kodachrome film is a B&W film with at least 9 different emulsions sensitive to Red, Green and Blue light and these emulsions are able to tell them apart and reproduce the original colors. The coatings are very thin to give good sharpness and the emulsions are very fine grained but still give good speed and grain. The coating is so complex than only Kodak remained active in this field even though Fuji once made a compatible film, as did Konica in Japan.

PE

Very interesting to learn this!
Its quite surprising they would produce a film that could only be processed in their competitors (kodak) labs!
I take it they did not have any processing labs of their own to send the film?