Polaroid Pro Palette 8000 experience?

[koraks]

{Moderator notice: this thread is NOT for posting want-to-buy ads!! We have a Classifieds forum for those. Any "do you want to sell your machine" posts will be deleted here.}

Thanks @clift_d for also touching upon this in the post below: it's indeed as you say! For some reason, this thread in particular keeps filling itself with WTB ads - so much so that it floods the actual content. As pointed out, we have a dedicated forum for classifieds.

 

[clift_d]

If you're looking for a Polaroid ProPalette unit post a Wanted ad in the Classifieds forum - if you pop a post in here the Mods will delete it, and the thread risks getting locked.

If you're looking for one of these units, I'd also suggest you download a copy of the relevant software - Mac from my links in earlier posts, PC from Phil Pemberton's website, while it's still available, and then if you manage to find one of these machines you should be able to get it running even if it doesn't come with a drivers disc.

Good luck with your search.

 

[clift_d]

{Moderator notice: this thread is NOT for posting want-to-buy ads!! We have a Classifieds forum for those. Any "do you want to sell your machine" posts will be deleted here.}

Thanks @clift_d for also touching upon this in the post below: it's indeed as you say! For some reason, this thread in particular keeps filling itself with WTB ads - so much so that it floods the actual content. As pointed out, we have a dedicated forum for classifieds.

This is one of the few active discussions anywhere on these units, and it's probably the most visible, so it's only natural that people might try to post a wanted ad here where they feel people might see it.

 

[MattKing]

This is one of the few active discussions anywhere on these units, and it's probably the most visible, so it's only natural that people might try to post a wanted ad here where they feel people might see it.

So if they want to post a wanted ad, they can subscribe and post that ad in the classifieds. We would have no problem if someone wanted to post in this thread a link to their subscriber's posted ad.

 

[UnaiDizdiz]

Hello, I want to use one of these devices, the 8000, we have one at the university. The computer were I managed to install the software (iMac G3) has USB and firewire. So I'm looking for an adapter from either the paralel or the SCSI port to USB. The paralel port doesn't seem to be the standard, so maybe easier SCSI. Somebody solved this point somehow?

 

[koraks]

Hmm, perhaps someone with more specific experience may chime in, but I think it's a tricky situation. There are FireWire to SCSI adapters, but the big question is if the 8000's software will recognize the SCSI interface. I severely doubt it. A better bet would be a computer with a native SCSI interface, so either an older Mac that has one natively, or one of the Mac's with PCI slots and a suitable PCI SCSI adapter (that's supported by your flavor of MacOS).

I suspect that your mission will be easier if you just find a more suitable host computer, so either a SCSI-enabled Mac or perhaps an older Windows PC with a SCSI adapter. For Windows machines, it's generally a little easier to find SCSI adapters since the market has always been bigger for them, and drivers tend to be a little easier to get by. I don't know if the Win95 ProPalette software will allow itself to be run on something more 'modern' like Windows XP. It's worth a try, but no guarantees due to the fundamental differences between XP and 95.

Sorry for not making it any easier! And I hope some of the actual 8000 users will chime in on this.

PS: if you find an old Win95 PC (one that still works...), it's likely to have a parallel port. That might possibly evade the SCSI issue.

 

[clift_d]

I believe Ratoc, Adaptec and Belkin made USB-SCSI or Firewire-SCSI adapters which you might want to try, but unfortunately I don't have any information to be able to say whether they would definitely work with your setup. They are also no longer available new and so you'll need to be able to find a working example second hand.

I've managed to get my 8000 working with a Wall Street Powerbook G3, which is one of the last models with built-in SCSI, and which gives me a nice compact setup, but I still haven't managed to resolve the issue of connecting this standalone setup to other newer computers - I'm currently having to burn CD-ROMS to transfer files and this is something that I don't want to continue.

In my opinion your best bet would probably be to see if you can find a late beige PowerMac with built in SCSI, such as a Power Macintosh G3 Desktop, put a PCI firewire card in to enable easier file transfers from your other computers, and run System 9.2.2 and the Polaroid RasterPlus package on it.

I wouldn't bother with trying to run it via the parallel port on a Windows machine as it will be much slower, and bear in mind that you're already probably going to be taking 3 - 5 minutes per frame with a SCSI setup. Also, you really need to using a Windows 95 machine to properly run the RasterPlus RP95 software available from Phil Pemberton's website, and that is likely to be much more painful than MacOS 9.2.2.

Let us know how you get on.

 

[UnaiDizdiz]

Thank you both for the replies! In the shop of my neighbourhood they told me something like that too: that maybe the software looks for an SCSI port and doesn't recognize the adapter at all. They told me that maybe I would need some kind of software for making a virtual SCSI port that could do a trick. Yet Mac os 9.2 is like arqueology to find this clues. In the shop they also find online an adapter but very expensive (a risk not knowing if it would work).
So in the meantime somebody in this forum could know about that possibility of an adapter, I'll try to find a PC or Mac from that time. If you have one near Bilbao and want to help, let me know!

 

[clift_d]

There's a Wall Street Powerbook G3 on ebay.es at the moment that might be worth checking out, i.e. the same one as I've been working with which has built-in SCSI - the item number is 354396888789.

 

[brbo]

Anyone have any samples of scanned film (C-41, BW) that was exposed by a Palette?

I know, requesting a digital file that came from another digital file when all you wanted was a negative... If not, can somebody share their thoughts on quality of the negatives from any of the Polaroid Palette range of devices. How printable are they?

 

[clift_d]

It's still early days for me in terms of testing, and I've only really focussed on B&W images, but here's a couple of test outputs to be going on with.

The original of both images is on the left, including a blown up detail, while the output file and detail are on the right. The original image files are 5976 x 3992 pixels greyscale JPEGs from a Leica M262, which have been output at native resolution using the ProPalette 8000 onto 35mm Ilford XP2+, which has then been lab processed and scanned with a Nikon Coolscan 5000 at 5782 × 3946 and then Levels adjustment applied in Photoshop to match the original JPEG.

Next experiments will be to check the the role played by the contrast of the original file going in, and also the different film types that can be used, including fine grained film like RPX25.

 

[koraks]

I think that's pretty remarkable - given that this is only 35mm film, so not all that much space to work with, and a machine from the, what, late 1990s?
I can see how this machine would be popular among alt. process printmakers for making 4x5's and 8x10's that blow an inkjet negative out of the water. Although the latter are also quite OK for contact printing these days.

 

[clift_d]

The ProPalette 8000 was launched at the end of 1995, so the technology is nearly 30 years old.

The different film backs have their own dedicated lenses, so with a 4x5" or 6x7cm back you're imaging roughly the same CRT face area, and scan resolution, as the 35mm back. The difference is that it might be possible to image the CRT scan structure on the larger format film, whereas on 35mm the grain is obviously a limiting factor. Unfortunately I don't have any facilities for large format so I'll probably need to find a 6x7 back, i.e. another unicorn, to test out that theory.

 

[brbo]

Thank you sooo much @clift_d for the samples!

Looks much better than I imagined. Is 8000 that much better than HR6000? I read here that with HR6000 there would be distinctive CRT pattern visible on the film. Your 8000 samples don't show any of that.

 

[clift_d]

I've never had a chance to try the HR6000 so it's difficult for me to say, although I'm aware that it's a 4K unit, similar to the ProPalette 7000, but from an earlier generation of this hardware. I think to some extent it would depend on the condition of the CRT in the film recorder, as they can suffer from 'screen burn' over the long term. I know Guilherme was experimenting with dumped units, which means he had no way of knowing how they'd been treated, and I'm also aware that he only had a version of the Photoshop plugin to work with, not the full RasterPlus package.

 

[brbo]

Good points!

Do you think one can expect a properly functioning Polaroid Palette not to leave CRT pattern on film? What you have shown here is awesome so I definitely could live with lower resolution of lower and cheaper models, but not with any weird patterns.

I mean, I definitely don't need another device, but I'm now suddenly curious if small prints from Palette colour negatives (from slide film scans) would be any good...

 

[clift_d]

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to your question. I'd assume that you'd be able to get reasonably sized enlargements out of it, maybe up to 8x10", particularly if the grain of the film you use is quite pronounced, but the only way to be certain would be to try and get access to one of these units and give it a go.

 

[Jimmy38]

By the way, for people who have a 7000 or 8000, you might want to grab a copy of CFR Film Table Commander:

CFR Film Table Commander creates and edits Polaroid Color Film Recorder Film Tables

CFR Film Table Commander edits and creates new Polaroid ProPalette 7000 and 8000 series Color Film Recorder Film Tables. It supports all film formats for these models. A 'New Film Table' wizard helps you create new film tables. Various exposure controls, including calibration targets, let you...

www.srs1software.com

It’s a film table editor for the ProPalette 7000 & 8000 that runs on Windows (alas), which has been made available as freeware by its creators. There’s no knowing how long it will stay available so you should grab it while you can. The online FAQ says that it will only edit the PC film tables but it seems to also recognise the Mac film tables, on a Windows computer, if you add a .FLM code to the end of the film table file name.

Dear clift_d, dear all,

Many thanks for your precious advice @clift_d .
Actually, I am a beginner in film recorder handling. I own a 8000 and I am trying to deal with it step by step. I did not yet have some pics out of it and I plan to launch the first "test" batch at the end of the week, crossing my fingers tight. I have to compose the most relevant way possible some 36 test slides (any advice on that issue ?)
I am mainly interested into two film recording application : B&W and Slides. The film table we can find into RasterPlus is short and seems not up to date. I cannot find into this list the models of film I plan to work with : Kodak E100 for slides and ILFORD delta 400 (iso 135) + ILFORD Ortho 120 for B&W.
Using CFR film Table Commander software (which I did run well thanks to you @clift_d ) seems to be a nice opportunity to adjust/correct starting from a table which would be close to the goal.
Though starting from nowhere (I was expecting to find some presets) appears to me like I should have to invest so much money and time hopping to reach some acceptable result – that I would even not be sure to reach one day. Passion for photography is just great but sometimes not easy to deal with family wise.
I assume some of you in here already worked and exchange some tips and settings referring to this issue, so if you kindest could help me starting my 8000 adventure from the right foot (literally translate from the french, not sure it fits...) I would just highly appreciate and feel grateful. Many thanks to you all and each. Greets !!!

 

[clift_d]

You're probably going to need to run through a few test films to dial in your scaling, exposure, etc. I'd pull together a set of maybe half a dozen images with a good balance of detail and tonal range that you can then run through repeatedly with different settings. Maybe include something standard such as an IT8 Target, or an ISO 12233 test chart, if you can find suitable examples. For the first couple of films you'll probably be best served by use the included film tables, and you can then tweak something bespoke using CFR Commander later.

There are some decent guidelines to preparing files for the PP8000 on the prepressexpress.com site here.

In terms of scaling, one of the first files you should output is one of the built-in calibration files - you can find the trigger for this under Film Recorder > Camera Options in RPMac, which is only accessible when your film recorder is connected and live. This output file will allow you to tweak the edge settings for your recorder by reading off the wedge scales at the edge of the negative - the best description of this process is actually in the RPWin95 manual, which you can find on Phil Pemberton's website here.

In terms of suitable computer hardware to run it, I've also had some success using a Powerbook G4, on Macintosh OS 9.2.2, with an Adaptec SlimSCSI 1480A cardbus adaptor.

Let us know how you get on, particularly in terms of colour output - I've only tried B&W so far.

 

[Jimmy38]

You're probably going to need to run through a few test films to dial in your scaling, exposure, etc. I'd pull together a set of maybe half a dozen images with a good balance of detail and tonal range that you can then run through repeatedly with different settings. Maybe include something standard such as an IT8 Target, or an ISO 12233 test chart, if you can find suitable examples. For the first couple of films you'll probably be best served by use the included film tables, and you can then tweak something bespoke using CFR Commander later.

There are some decent guidelines to preparing files for the PP8000 on the prepressexpress.com site here.

In terms of scaling, one of the first files you should output is one of the built-in calibration files - you can find the trigger for this under Film Recorder > Camera Options in RPMac, which is only accessible when your film recorder is connected and live. This output file will allow you to tweak the edge settings for your recorder by reading off the wedge scales at the edge of the negative - the best description of this process is actually in the RPWin95 manual, which you can find on Phil Pemberton's website here.

In terms of suitable computer hardware to run it, I've also had some success using a Powerbook G4, on Macintosh OS 9.2.2, with an Adaptec SlimSCSI 1480A cardbus adaptor.

Let us know how you get on, particularly in terms of colour output - I've only tried B&W so far.

Many thanks for the time involved into helping me. I do appreciate. Your tips are precious !
I found a high res ISO 12233 test charts but I do not manage to find a digital IT8 file. All I can find is some printed IT8 targets for scanner's calibration.
I don't get exactly what you mean by

"This output file will allow you to tweak the edge settings for your recorder by reading off the wedge scales at the edge of the negative"

???

Anyway, I will follow your recommendations and keep you posted about my steps forward.

Thank you so much, again !
Greets

 

[Jimmy38]

So these are my steps foward until now :
I did check the RPwin95 manual and understood the wedge scale method @clift_d mentioned.
I found out some targets on the internet though finally produced some bespoke ones on photoshop : one for color range and another that mixes some b&w graphical canevas, each in 4k and 8k (I can send it to anyone interested here if it may help).
I composed as well some slides as references for the jobs to come meant to be printed with different film profiles from the film tables - then to be refined with CFR commander at next step.

On the other hand, I checked every step of the process on raster plus and Propalette and sacrified an old roll to get used to handeling.

Everything seems on the good path

But…

I face some troubles importing the my digital files into the queue. Raster Plus do not like my files thought it seems to fulfill its requierments. Tiff, RVB1998 color profile.

I am stuck

If anyone has some tips at this stage it would be much appreciated !!

Thanks to all and to each.

Greets

 

[clift_d]

A couple of things to try. Are you saving your TIFF files with compression? Are you using a file extension when naming?

The files I've been using are all TIFFs saved without compression, all saved in RGB mode including greyscale images intended for B&W film output, and always saved with a '.TIF' file extension on the name. I'm not sure whether the ICC profile might make a difference, but I think the ones I was outputting were mostly saved as sRGB.

I've also been outputting with SmartFit turned on in RasterPlus.

 

[koraks]

Are you saving your TIFF files with compression?

This might be part of it. TIFFs can be made in many ways; I'd offer the most basic tiff you can imagine. No compression, no layers, minimal/no metadata.

 

[Jimmy38]

I confirm I create and save my files from Photos CC 2017 without compression, no layer. I do use the file extension, .TIF or .JPG.
I confirm it is unfortunately not recognise by RasterPlus95.
When I open this TIF or JPG files in Photoshop5 and I save it as TIFF or JPG, then it accepted by RP95.

So I finally found a way to solve my problem although I would prefer avoiding this time consuming additional step !

Would you have any idea ?

Is there a way to compare each file version datas to understand how to solve this issue ?

 

[clift_d]

From the Adobe website here, apparently there’s a difference in the ‘pixel order’ in the way newer versions of Photoshop save TIFF files:

Pixel order
Writes the TIFF file with the channels data interleaved or organized by plane. Previously, Photoshop always wrote TIFF files with the channel order interleaved. Theoretically, the Planar order file can be read and written faster, and offers a little better compression. Both channel orders are backward compatible with earlier versions of Photoshop.

So perhaps RP95 needs a TIFF file with an interleaved pixel order.