Phoenix II - released 2025-07-16 - speculation and hints during the lead up

[mshchem]

My shipment finally arrived. Looking forward to seeing how it comes out in my process
View attachment 403621

COMMITMENT!

 

[thinkbrown]

COMMITMENT!

I know I like original Phoenix, wanted to make sure I have it around for a while.

As far as version 2 goes, I'm assuming it's gonna take me a roll or two to get a feel for it

 

[Harry Callahan]

I'm fairly sure the Cedar Rapids and Iowa City doesn't have any dye coupler experts on staff, but you never know

Yes, the railROAD staff may not be able to help me out, but maybe the railRED staff had an idea...

 

[thinkbrown]

Yes, the railROAD staff may not be able to help me out, but maybe the railRED staff had an idea...

 

[Harry Callahan]

I mean i have this image in my mind where an ordinary street sign has an additional and smaller sign above saying: "If reds don`t render proper call 555-HARMAN-123" or something...

 

[mshchem]

I mean i have this image in my mind where an ordinary street sign has an additional and smaller sign above saying: "If reds don`t render proper call 555-HARMAN-123" or something...

 

[pentaxuser]

mshchem, you may not have been able to answer my question yet but from yours and other replies on this and another thread I will take it reds come out as orange so that the colour of the edges of the Yield sign was red

This seems like a major defect in terms of colour rendition and one that does not seem to be correctable but just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

 

[Ten301]

I applaud Harman for their efforts with Phoenix I and II, and this is no way intended to be a negative statement. However, I’m reading and seeing the examples of the difficulty others are having achieving anything close to a true red with Phoenix II. I cannot understand how Harman could release an improved 2nd generation of Phoenix with such a glaring shortcoming, even with the understanding that the film is still a work in progress?

 

[mshchem]

mshchem, you may not have been able to answer my question yet but from yours and other replies on this and another thread I will take it reds come out as orange so that the colour of the edges of the Yield sign was red

This seems like a major defect in terms of colour rendition and one that does not seem to be correctable but just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

I am absolutely not keen when it comes to scanning color negatives.

I don't know how to answer your question other than the sign isn't orange.

I used VueScan, fooled around a bit with the Microsoft photo editor for about 3 minutes.
Based on other folks results, I think this is a pretty good film, definitely worthy of trying.

Sharpness and grain look quite good.

 

[dcy]

I cannot understand how Harman could release an improved 2nd generation of Phoenix with such a glaring shortcoming, even with the understanding that the film is still a work in progress?

All things are relative. I think the relevant question is whether Phoenix II is a noticeable improvement over Phoenix I, and from what I gather the consensus is that it is a huge improvement, even if you can point to one specific issue that got worse.

• Dynamic range? --- Improved.
• Film speed? --- Improved.
• Scanning? --- Improved.
• Halation? --- Improved.
• Grain? --- Improved.
• Uniform color sensitivity? --- Improved.
• Overall color rendition? --- Improved.
• Huge of the color red? --- Worsened.

Seven steps forward, one step back.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they'd release a product like this.

 

[Ten301]

All things are relative. I think the relevant question is whether Phoenix II is a noticeable improvement over Phoenix I, and from what I gather the consensus is that it is a huge improvement, even if you can point to one specific issue that got worse.

• Dynamic range? --- Improved.
• Film speed? --- Improved.
• Scanning? --- Improved.
• Halation? --- Improved.
• Grain? --- Improved.
• Uniform color sensitivity? --- Improved.
• Overall color rendition? --- Improved.
• Huge of the color red? --- Worsened.

Seven steps forward, one step back.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they'd release a product like this.

Perhaps and, again, I am not attempting to be negative on Harman. I realize Phoenix II has made some substantial improvements over the first incarnation.

That being said, the red ‘problem’ is going to be so noticeable, it is going to be difficult to ignore. It will make it very hard to use the film as anything approaching a ‘normal’ film. For example, bright orange apples? Orange roses that are supposed to be red?

Reading these posts, I believe I understand how Harman is funding its R&D for Phoenix, and I’m also aware that creating a new color negative film out of thin air is a next to impossible task. I guess I expected, perhaps naively, that Phoenix Gen. II would have been somewhat more refined, or Harman would have waited just a little longer to release a film that could get reds somewhere in the ballpark.

 

[dcy]

That being said, the red ‘problem’ is going to be so noticeable, it is going to be difficult to ignore. It will make it very hard to use the film as anything approaching a ‘normal’ film. For example, bright orange apples? Orange roses that are supposed to be red?

Yeah. Then again, you probably can't use Phoenix I as a "normal" film either. So I don't see that Harman or the consumer is losing anything.

I guess I expected, perhaps naively, that Phoenix Gen. II would have been somewhat more refined, or Harman would have waited just a little longer to release a film that could get reds somewhere in the ballpark.

I have no intuition as to how much work it'd take Harman to fix the reds.

 

[dcy]

This reminds me of two approaches to software development:

Historically, most software products release a new version when some particular set of features is deemed complete. But some software projects, like the Ubuntu Linux distribution, releases a new version on a fixed calendar schedule and features that aren't deemed mature by a given date are postponed to a future release.

I have no idea what Harman's plans are, but if I was Harman I would be trying to find a balance between having regular enough releases to maintain public interest while having each release be enough of an improvement to get good publicity.

 

[koraks]

Interest is one thing; they're also simply raising cash.

 

[Agulliver]

Phoenix I was certainly not possible to use as an everyday or "normal" film. Phoenix II may come closer....I have some now but won't be shooting it for about a week. But it's still not meant to be "normal". Whether the odd rendition of red is noticed or spoils photos depends on what you're photographing. A nice landscape with greens and browns might well look a *lot* better with Phoenix II. A still life of apples and tomatoes, less so. Not sure how it's going to render skin tones but I've seen some very nice portraits shot with Phoenix II so there's hope.

In the end, those of us who use it should probably take the time to report here and to Harman what we like and don't like about it....so they can have feedback as to what to change for Phoenix III.