Phoenix II - released 2025-07-16 - speculation and hints during the lead up

[mshchem]

My shipment finally arrived. Looking forward to seeing how it comes out in my process
View attachment 403621

COMMITMENT!

 

[thinkbrown]

COMMITMENT!

I know I like original Phoenix, wanted to make sure I have it around for a while.

As far as version 2 goes, I'm assuming it's gonna take me a roll or two to get a feel for it

 

[Harry Callahan]

I'm fairly sure the Cedar Rapids and Iowa City doesn't have any dye coupler experts on staff, but you never know

Yes, the railROAD staff may not be able to help me out, but maybe the railRED staff had an idea...

 

[thinkbrown]

Yes, the railROAD staff may not be able to help me out, but maybe the railRED staff had an idea...

 

[Harry Callahan]

I mean i have this image in my mind where an ordinary street sign has an additional and smaller sign above saying: "If reds don`t render proper call 555-HARMAN-123" or something...

 

[mshchem]

I mean i have this image in my mind where an ordinary street sign has an additional and smaller sign above saying: "If reds don`t render proper call 555-HARMAN-123" or something...

 

[pentaxuser]

mshchem, you may not have been able to answer my question yet but from yours and other replies on this and another thread I will take it reds come out as orange so that the colour of the edges of the Yield sign was red

This seems like a major defect in terms of colour rendition and one that does not seem to be correctable but just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

 

[Ten301]

I applaud Harman for their efforts with Phoenix I and II, and this is no way intended to be a negative statement. However, I’m reading and seeing the examples of the difficulty others are having achieving anything close to a true red with Phoenix II. I cannot understand how Harman could release an improved 2nd generation of Phoenix with such a glaring shortcoming, even with the understanding that the film is still a work in progress?

 

[mshchem]

mshchem, you may not have been able to answer my question yet but from yours and other replies on this and another thread I will take it reds come out as orange so that the colour of the edges of the Yield sign was red

This seems like a major defect in terms of colour rendition and one that does not seem to be correctable but just an observation on my part

pentaxuser

I am absolutely not keen when it comes to scanning color negatives.

I don't know how to answer your question other than the sign isn't orange.

I used VueScan, fooled around a bit with the Microsoft photo editor for about 3 minutes.
Based on other folks results, I think this is a pretty good film, definitely worthy of trying.

Sharpness and grain look quite good.

 

[dcy]

I cannot understand how Harman could release an improved 2nd generation of Phoenix with such a glaring shortcoming, even with the understanding that the film is still a work in progress?

All things are relative. I think the relevant question is whether Phoenix II is a noticeable improvement over Phoenix I, and from what I gather the consensus is that it is a huge improvement, even if you can point to one specific issue that got worse.

• Dynamic range? --- Improved.
• Film speed? --- Improved.
• Scanning? --- Improved.
• Halation? --- Improved.
• Grain? --- Improved.
• Uniform color sensitivity? --- Improved.
• Overall color rendition? --- Improved.
• Huge of the color red? --- Worsened.

Seven steps forward, one step back.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they'd release a product like this.

 

[Ten301]

All things are relative. I think the relevant question is whether Phoenix II is a noticeable improvement over Phoenix I, and from what I gather the consensus is that it is a huge improvement, even if you can point to one specific issue that got worse.

• Dynamic range? --- Improved.
• Film speed? --- Improved.
• Scanning? --- Improved.
• Halation? --- Improved.
• Grain? --- Improved.
• Uniform color sensitivity? --- Improved.
• Overall color rendition? --- Improved.
• Huge of the color red? --- Worsened.

Seven steps forward, one step back.

I don't think it's unreasonable that they'd release a product like this.

Perhaps and, again, I am not attempting to be negative on Harman. I realize Phoenix II has made some substantial improvements over the first incarnation.

That being said, the red ‘problem’ is going to be so noticeable, it is going to be difficult to ignore. It will make it very hard to use the film as anything approaching a ‘normal’ film. For example, bright orange apples? Orange roses that are supposed to be red?

Reading these posts, I believe I understand how Harman is funding its R&D for Phoenix, and I’m also aware that creating a new color negative film out of thin air is a next to impossible task. I guess I expected, perhaps naively, that Phoenix Gen. II would have been somewhat more refined, or Harman would have waited just a little longer to release a film that could get reds somewhere in the ballpark.

 

[dcy]

That being said, the red ‘problem’ is going to be so noticeable, it is going to be difficult to ignore. It will make it very hard to use the film as anything approaching a ‘normal’ film. For example, bright orange apples? Orange roses that are supposed to be red?

Yeah. Then again, you probably can't use Phoenix I as a "normal" film either. So I don't see that Harman or the consumer is losing anything.

I guess I expected, perhaps naively, that Phoenix Gen. II would have been somewhat more refined, or Harman would have waited just a little longer to release a film that could get reds somewhere in the ballpark.

I have no intuition as to how much work it'd take Harman to fix the reds.

 

[dcy]

This reminds me of two approaches to software development:

Historically, most software products release a new version when some particular set of features is deemed complete. But some software projects, like the Ubuntu Linux distribution, releases a new version on a fixed calendar schedule and features that aren't deemed mature by a given date are postponed to a future release.

I have no idea what Harman's plans are, but if I was Harman I would be trying to find a balance between having regular enough releases to maintain public interest while having each release be enough of an improvement to get good publicity.

 

[koraks]

Interest is one thing; they're also simply raising cash.

 

[Agulliver]

Phoenix I was certainly not possible to use as an everyday or "normal" film. Phoenix II may come closer....I have some now but won't be shooting it for about a week. But it's still not meant to be "normal". Whether the odd rendition of red is noticed or spoils photos depends on what you're photographing. A nice landscape with greens and browns might well look a *lot* better with Phoenix II. A still life of apples and tomatoes, less so. Not sure how it's going to render skin tones but I've seen some very nice portraits shot with Phoenix II so there's hope.

In the end, those of us who use it should probably take the time to report here and to Harman what we like and don't like about it....so they can have feedback as to what to change for Phoenix III.

 

[Henning Serger]

To expand a bit on what I said earlier, here's how I see it. And I invite people with more in-depth knowledge such as@Lachlan Young, @laser and @Henning Serger to rectify my conjectures where they miss the mark.

As you you have adressed me, I will reply. Trying to make it as short as possible :

We know for a fact that Harman is employing several people on their color development.

The general problem all film manufactuers are facing is that you cannot simply "hire an emulsionist / chemist / chemical engineer" who is well educated and trained in creating photographic emulsions. Because making photographic emulsions is such an extremely specialist task / topic, that it is not taught at universities (or other educational institutions).
So after hiring a chemist or chemical engineer, you have to train / educate him in house by yourself, by your own company to become an emulsion specialist. That takes about 3-5 years, to become a (very) good emulsionist.

They have a whole set of challenges on their plates, of course - but hey, so does Ino/Filmotec.

We should not forget that both InovisCoat and FilmoTec, after being purchased by Jake Seal and his investment group, got into insolvency and suffered a huge brain drain (all the experts I met at my factory visit at InovisCoat before the insolvency left the company in the insolvency). FilmoTec also suffered a huge brain drain, as most of all long-employed experts there left the company. Also most of the FilmoTec machinery was sold.
Meanwhile both companies are even officially liquidated, so they does not exist anymore from a legal point of view.
As Jake Seal is now main shareholder of Film Ferrania, we have to wait and see whether - or which - assets of InovisCoat and FilmoTec could have been saved, and may perhaps in the future be used in connection with Film Ferrania.

So based on technical complexity, it's unlikely that either #2 or let alone #3 would be feasible in response to a single customer pestering Filmotec for a bit and waving a modest amount of cash in their general direction. Looking at things from that end, we could make some haphazard quantitative assumptions and see how the numbers would work out. Keep in mind we're not talking about Kodak and Fuji here, so production batch sizes will likely be a heck of a lot smaller. Let's say an initial market-oriented production batch would be, ah, wild guess, 50k rolls for this new Orwo 200 product. Let's also say that for the purpose of this incremental development of the product, around $0.50 per roll would be made available for R&D expenditure (which I think is rather on the very generous side). This would mean an R&D budget of $25k. You can't do all that much for that kind of money. Put a chemical engineer into a well-equipped lab and he'll burn through $1k/day easily in brut wages, cost of capital, materials etc. That means 20 days of work plus a little administrative overhead, and at that point nobody in the R&D chain has made any money off of the thing except 'Bernd the Dipl. Ing' who goes home with a decent but still modest salary. You can't do all that much in 20 days - maybe, if you're very lucky, #1. But only downhill with the wind in your back and looking at the end product with not too critical a QA focus. So also from that end, things don't really look in favor of "yes, dear customer, we will make you a properly masked film out of nowhere in little to no time at all."

You are right, the above mentioned amount for an R&D budget is next to nothing. Creating a CN film is extremely difficult, and even an established colour film manufacturer with a working CN technology / infrastructure would need about a higher six-digit to lower seven-digit € sum to create a completely new CN film (a mass-market compatible "normal" film).

Therefore:
Harman technology's approach to integrate their loyal customers into the R&D process, making the R&D steps accessible to their customers, asking for their feedback, and generate funding for the continued R&D by selling these R&D steps = experimental films, is really the only practicable way for a relatively small company to manage that huge challenge (Harman has about 200 employees).
And their BW products are also not high-margin products, which could potentially be used as a "deep reservoir" for funding the whole colour film development.

Both from a technological, and from an economic point of view Harman technology has chosen the absolute right strategy. And they deserve to be supported by the film community.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[dcy]

Therefore:
Harman technology's approach to integrate their loyal customers into the R&D process, making the R&D steps accessible to their customers, asking for their feedback, and generate funding for the continued R&D by selling these R&D steps = experimental films, is really the only practicable way for a relatively small company to manage that huge challenge (Harman has about 200 employees).
And their BW products are also not high-margin products, which could potentially be used as a "deep reservoir" for funding the whole colour film development.

Both from a technological, and from an economic point of view Harman technology has chosen the absolute right strategy. And they deserve to be supported by the film community.

Best regards,
Henning

Right now I really wish this site had a "Like" button.

 

[BHuij]

<snip>

Both from a technological, and from an economic point of view Harman technology has chosen the absolute right strategy. And they deserve to be supported by the film community.

Best regards,
Henning

Couldn't have said it better myself. Is either Phoenix I or Phoenix II an incredible film that does something better than existing color stocks from a technical standpoint? Nah. But I think great art can be and has been created on both versions. Aside from that, my Ilford fanboyism demands I help support them on what was, at the end of the day, a really bold and risky endeavor of creating a new color film from the ground up in the 2020s. They didn't do this because they thought it would make them rich, they did it because they want to support the film community. That's us. Least we can do is buy a few rolls and see what comes out. My $0.02.

 

[pentaxuser]

Couldn't have said it better myself. Is either Phoenix I or Phoenix II an incredible film that does something better than existing color stocks from a technical standpoint? Nah. But I think great art can be and has been created on both versions. Aside from that, my Ilford fanboyism demands I help support them on what was, at the end of the day, a really bold and risky endeavor of creating a new color film from the ground up in the 2020s. They didn't do this because they thought it would make them rich, they did it because they want to support the film community. That's us. Least we can do is buy a few rolls and see what comes out. My $0.02.

Well it would be correct to say, would it not, that it embarked on colour film production to make a profit and the way you do that is to produce items that the film community, in the case of film, will buy to keep your business viable i.e. in profit

Ilford/Harman are not just in the film business because it wants to support the film community in the sense of being philanthropists whose aim is solely to support the film community. At least that not the way I see it or see any other company whose business just happens to be my hobby

pentaxuser

 

[Prest_400]

We should not forget that both InovisCoat and FilmoTec, after being purchased by Jake Seal and his investment group, got into insolvency and suffered a huge brain drain (all the experts I met at my factory visit at InovisCoat before the insolvency left the company in the insolvency). FilmoTec also suffered a huge brain drain, as most of all long-employed experts there left the company. Also most of the FilmoTec machinery was sold.
Meanwhile both companies are even officially liquidated, so they does not exist anymore from a legal point of view.
As Jake Seal is now main shareholder of Film Ferrania, we have to wait and see whether - or which - assets of InovisCoat and FilmoTec could have been saved, and may perhaps in the future be used in connection with Film Ferrania.

Very much appreciated insights by Henning; and others like film-niko which by the way the personas confuse me as you have a similar style of writing. Also, to be the voice of reason given the negative opinions that are spread around. I know am not the consumer for Phoenix yet, but support Harman's great B&W and will support when their C41 film reaches a certain maturity level.

The Agfa to Inovisproject "Journey" is very interesting. There were a lot of interesting and confusing speculations of what is happening there.
@koraks Perhaps part of the Inovis discussion can be taken in the Opticolour film thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-film-also-orwo-npc-200-opticolour-200.210690
A simplification is that... is there a lot in common between Adox Color Mission, Lomo 92, Lomo Metropolis and NC200 as in that it is manufactured by Inovis(whatever)?
Also Jake Seal was unnamed in quite negative words in another photography forum regarding owning Orwo and basically going badly.

At least that not the way I see it or see any other company whose business just happens to be my hobby

Indeed, and who are right sized to be sustainably in film manufacturing. I recall those discussions in APUG 2000s-2010s where Kodak was oversized and heading towards the bankruptcy that eventually happened; Fuji seemed to be in the long run and perhaps the last one standing for color. Then Ilford just were in B&W and ADOX namedly put a price to develop colour film and as non viable during that time (this thread is still around). The latter statement has changed due to conditions after the pandemic given how many new (re)entrants into color we have now.

 

[koraks]

@koraks Perhaps part of the Inovis discussion can be taken in the Opticolour film thread: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-film-also-orwo-npc-200-opticolour-200.210690

Feel free to post there, but it's not really feasible to split out parts of posts into a new thread.

 

[dcy]

Well it would be correct to say, would it not, that it embarked on colour film production to make a profit and the way you do that is to produce items that the film community, in the case of film, will buy to keep your business viable i.e. in profit

Ilford/Harman are not just in the film business because it wants to support the film community in the sense of being philanthropists whose aim is solely to support the film community. At least that not the way I see it or see any other company whose business just happens to be my hobby

I cannot know the minds of anyone at Harman, but sometimes a company exists because people legitimately have a passion. When Florian Kaps created the Impossible Project to save something of Polaroid, I don't think he did it because he thought that was the most efficient way for him to get rich. Yet, for film or any other hobby to survive, it has to be at least self-sustaining.

Earlier there was a side discussion about why Harman seems to get much better press than Orwo, despite Orwo film clearly being superior. I think the public's perception of Harman's intentions and commitment to the hobby compared to Jake Seal's is a bit part of it.

 

[BHuij]

Well it would be correct to say, would it not, that it embarked on colour film production to make a profit and the way you do that is to produce items that the film community, in the case of film, will buy to keep your business viable i.e. in profit

Ilford/Harman are not just in the film business because it wants to support the film community in the sense of being philanthropists whose aim is solely to support the film community. At least that not the way I see it or see any other company whose business just happens to be my hobby

pentaxuser

Yes, and I suppose I should clarify that I'm not claiming Harman's venture into producing a color film was some kind of charity or philanthropy decision. More just that I get the sense Ilford could easily scale up and stick to their core competency of making excellent B&W films, papers, and chemistry if they wanted to. And that that would probably be a less risky and more rewarding business plan if the sole goal was to increase profits.

Instead they chose to take a stab at making a brand new color film from whole cloth in the 2020s. Not because the market "needed" it (several excellent Kodak color films exist, after all), and not because it seemed like a direct path to maximum profits. Not even because they thought they could compete meaningfully in the market of extremely particular color film consumers, on technical merit; they had to know that they'd be decades behind Kodak's technology. Perhaps my speculation is incorrect, but it seems very on brand for them to do this primarily in the name of giving film photographers more options and enriching the hobby for us all. Of course they would need to do it in a way that doesn't compromise their business viability or lose them a ton of money. But money doesn't seem like it was the primary motivation for the endeavor.

When I justapose this against the kind of business decisions we've seen from Fujifilm over the past 15 years as they relate to the film photography community (discontinuing Neopan 1600, Astia, Acros I, Velvia 100, Pro 400H, Superia X-tra, and severely limiting the amount of Provia 100 making it to North American markets), the contrast between the company goals and motivations seems really clear to me.

Perhaps it's just that Harman's PR is really effective on this gullible schmuck, but I love their B&W films and papers, and the fact that they've been consistently available at fair prices for the entire time I've been a film photographer. Enough for me to say "Sure, I'll shell out for a few rolls of your experimental-ish new color negative film and give it a try, if it means you have the cash flow to keep the R&D going. Even if it's giving me results I don't like as much as Vision3 or ProImage."

 

[koraks]

sometimes a company exists because people legitimately have a passion

But that's not enough to keep it in existence. Passion can play a role in running a business for sure, but it evidently doesn't pay for the groceries.

I think the public's perception of Harman's intentions and commitment to the hobby compared to Jake Seal's is a bit part of it.

Marketing.

Look, I'm sure the 200 people working at Harman have a swell time working there overall. But if you were to cut their pay by 20% most of them would run off to go work somewhere else. That's about the order of magnitude of the monetary value of "passion".

 

[dcy]

@koraks

I said that for a hobby to survive it has to be self-sustaining. My point is that making profit is not a bad thing; it is a necessity. It feels like you're polarizing the options into extremes. Either Harman is a charity, or it's all about money. Isn't there an option where people do things they either enjoy or care about but logically they try to do it in a way that allows them to live with as much safety and comfort as they can manage?

People do routinely take effective 20% cuts when making career choices. If I had gone into finance instead of pure science my income would be a heck of a lot more than 25% more than what I currently make. But of course, I try to have a salary that allows me to enjoy life with some level of safety and comfort. Both things can and do coexist in a lot of people. You don't get to decide that 20% salary is the price of passion, or that passion can be dismissed or is diminished if people quit due to a 20% pay cut. Maybe that's how it is for you, but life is complex and everyone is different.