Orwo colour film teaser?

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markjwyatt

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Freestyle is now carrying "Original Wolfen" films, so it looks like things are happening on that front. They are out of stock on all the items, but are still listing them (with a projected September restock date).
 

AgX

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It seems that Orwo and Shanghai have a business relationahip since 2019 or so. GP3 100 and 400 would be Orwo films confectioned by the chinese company.

You missed my point, the above relation I indicated in the past, aside the fact that "Orwo" did not yet exist in 2019.

Bur "Orwo" now put as if they use their chinese partner just for outsourcing the conversion stage of their Wolfen films.
 

cmacd123

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Wells there's Visions 50D and 250D. Surely the kind people in Rochester thought about this before they developed and marketed two products for this non-existent niche.
Fuji (when they still made Movie film) had REALLA 500D stock (8692 in 35mm and 8692 in 16mm) and TWO 250D stocks , Eterna and Eterna VIVID. they also had F-64D All gone at the stroke of a pen.
 

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cmacd123

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Bur "Orwo" now put as if they use their chinese partner just for outsourcing the conversion stage of their Wolfen films.

this may explain the roll of "Shanghi 400" bulk film I gt off of e-bay with filmotec N74 edge pronting, including the KeyKode (movie film) bar codes.
 

Ten301

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So far nobody mentioned the "First Look - Orwo Wolfen NC500" link published on ORWO site...

Looks like this film doesn't have the orange mask. Was the Agfa XT320 the same?

I went ahead and ordered a few rolls, although I have yet to receive them.

My feeling is this is not a native C41 process film, but ECN2, and ORWO is packaging and labeling it for still use as C41 just as Cinestill does with Vision3. They may have made a master roll without remjet for this purpose. My hunch (just a hunch) is exposed around 250-320 and processed in ECN2, the film will look much the way it was intended, and much better than when processed in C41.
 
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cmacd123

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XT320 was a standard ECNII Movie film, complete with RemJet. Only Quirk I recall was that the brand edge print was between the perfs rather than the edge.
 

runswithsizzers

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I went ahead and ordered a few rolls, although I have yet to receive them.

My feeling is this is not a native C41 process film, but ECN2, and ORWO is packaging and labeling it for still use as C41 just as Cinestill does with Vision3. They may have made a master roll without remjet for this purpose. My hunch (just a hunch) is exposed around 250-320 and processed in ECN2, the film will look much the way it was intended, and much better than when processed in C41.
Am I the only one who would prefer the film manufacturers to clearly state what processing their films were designed for? And by "manufacturers" I really mean whatever entity took the steps that were necessary to result in a roll of film becoming available for me to buy.

If a film produces acceptable results when processed by standard C-41 chemistry, then well and good! But if the film was designed to be processed in ECN2, then I don't see how it helps anybody to conceal that fact.
 

Ten301

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Am I the only one who would prefer the film manufacturers to clearly state what processing their films were designed for? And by "manufacturers" I really mean whatever entity took the steps that were necessary to result in a roll of film becoming available for me to buy.

If a film produces acceptable results when processed by standard C-41 chemistry, then well and good! But if the film was designed to be processed in ECN2, then I don't see how it helps anybody to conceal that fact.

It all comes down to a bit of greed helped along by standards in marketing that seem to get more lax every second. ORWO likely noticed how successful Cinestill has been and decided, “Hey, we can play that game, too!”, even though Cinestill’s rebranded Vision 3 (sans remjet) certainly suffers souped in the C41 it was never designed for.
 
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cmacd123

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Yes, looks almost like a Lomo Metropolis film (2019 version).

The New New ORWO is apparently a result of a Merger that Includes InovisCoat. That firm has been suggested as the place where some of the "Weird" lomography brand films were coated.

so far Lomography has not shown a "normal" colour film from their own sources. (they do have one which is apparently private label Kodak)

the previous incarnation of ORWO as Filmotec was rumored to have their coating done by OTHER that InovisCoat, except for Perhaps N75. (I have heard on an off the record basis from one person who is very proably in a position to know that their were Layoffs at Filmotec, amoung some of the technical people) the Major "camera" B&W films from Filmotec (UN54, N74 and N75) are now all out of stock. Another proably reliable source did say they he had heard that ORWO was planning to bring back N74 Movie Negative.

InovisCoat has one of the fomer Agfa Coating machines and supposedly has the formulas for what was coated at Agfa Leverkusen. while Agfa XT320 was labeled "Belgium" as it was on an acetate base it might have been coated at Leverkusen.

YMMV. or as the film spools turn.

I am in watch and wait mode myself. (although expecting that I will See Ferrania P30 in 120 size before I see some more N74 or N75)
 

cmacd123

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I guess we should use "ORWO3" to talk about the folks currently using the orwo name, as filmotec seems to have been absorbed
 

AgX

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I have heard on an off the record basis from one person who is very proably in a position to know that their were Layoffs at Filmotec, amoung some of the technical people.

At least not before their insolvency to my knowledge.


While Agfa XT320 was labeled "Belgium" as it was on an acetate base it might have been coated at Leverkusen.

Cine film manufacture, as of all "non-cosumer" films, was a sole task of the plant in Mortsel. Though in more recent years a kind of streamling had taken place with more exchange between the major plants.


I guess we should use "ORWO3" to talk about the folks currently using the orwo name, as filmotec seems to have been absorbed

That "Orwo-group" talk is basically something only uttered in Britain.
 
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"we are also now running our own C41 motion picture tests on our new C41 motion picture processors - which are now installed at Black Hangar Studios in the UK and also installed at our Wolfen site - ready for the first feature film to be shot on this brand new stock. "
 

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"Orders for 16mm and 35mm will launch on www.orwo.shop very soon. This stock is currently being cut and perforated at our Wolfen facility and our team is working through the final details to ensure that we can deliver this immediately to you once released online. 8mm and 65mm will launch at a later date."


Means that you'll probably be able to buy a large cine roll before we get our 36exp rolls that we preordered in June. Oh, well...

Since cine rolls will be C-41 and without remjet, I expect a lot of still shooters will be "group buying" cine rolls and also selling surplus film hand spooled into 35mm cassettes. I'm curious what ORWO's pricing policy will be. Even if they sell cine rolls at Kodak's prices (less than 300 EUR for 400' rolls) this will be cheaper than any colour negative film. Big question is whether this film will be any good. Last samples are way too much into the Lomoland for me, but Lomo Metropolis with 3x price might be in trouble...
 

Arcadia4

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Quite a few interesting points in this statement;

NC500 claimed to be intended as c41 both for still and as movie stock without remjet - perhaps a practical decision to avoid needing to coat separate runs for still and movie use? (although it then discusses people wishing to try it out in ecn2 as well)

Specific Tungsten stock to follow (noting xt320 was a tungsten stock)

orwo/filmotec intend to install their own cassette facility rather than rely on outsourcing this step. (They are set up for movie camera long rolls) Also possible short term use of 2 other european partners for stills packaging presumably foma or harman, due to delay in china

While Shanghai is a partner for some time, they usually package in plastic cassettes only such as the lomo metropolis/ purple etc films. It was stated by shanghai previously that only luckyfilm had the facilities for 35mm metal cassettes in china so unclear how they are doing this, which aside from covid perhaps explains part of the delay?
 

koraks

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avoid needing to coat separate runs for still and movie use

It's not just coating separate runs. Having "the same" film in an ECN2 and C41 architecture would in fact constitute two fundamentally different film products based in different dye coupler technologies, likely with influence on just about every ingredient in each of the several emulsions of both products. It would effectively double the r&d effort. Besides, ECN2 and C41 are just different in terms of negative characteristics; they really wouldn't be "the same" in most respects apart from being negative stocks with an orange mask (different masks at that, by the way).

Don't underestimate the C41/ECN2 difference. One is not a variation on the other or something. They're very different animals.

Marketing a c41 movie stock might make sense if you want to tap into existing c41 processing capacity in the market. With the sidenote that it would likely alienate the small part of the existing film industry that still works with film and is used ECN2 as a standard, so it would mostly appeal to "indie" producers without vested interests in the existing market structure or technology base.

It's ani nteresting development for sure, in terms of marketing strategy, if not photographically.
 

Ten301

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I agree with ‘brbo’ that some of the results posted so far look more like a weird Lomo film than a normal, useful film. I’m hoping that’s just not getting it right in scanning as opposed to the film itself. Still, you would think ORWO would attempt to put their best foot forward, especially in their own posts. In any event, I look forward to their samples in ECN2.
 

brbo

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Don't underestimate the C41/ECN2 difference. One is not a variation on the other or something. They're very different animals.

Marketing a c41 movie stock might make sense if you want to tap into existing c41 processing capacity in the market. With the sidenote that it would likely alienate the small part of the existing film industry that still works with film and is used ECN2 as a standard, so it would mostly appeal to "indie" producers without vested interests in the existing market structure or technology base.

I don't know how suitable the existing C-41 processing capacities are for processing long rolls. Maybe it's no problem at all, but ORWO said that they set up two new "C41 motion picture" processors.

And C-41 in film industry might be less of a problem nowadays as they probably go straight to scanning after developing the original negative. The needed (digital) adjustments to get C-41 to what is expected from material scanned from ECN-2 film is probably not impossible. If this is needed at all, I'm pretty sure that colorists could adapt without too much trouble. Movies have been shot on E-6 which is much higher contrast than C-41, on bleach-bypassed negatives, cross processed film...
 

koraks

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@brbo there's probably a reason (or two...) for Vision3 (ECN2!) being a rather low-contrast, low-saturation stock. It helps to make the film versatile so that in post processing big contrast ranges can be pummeled to fit into the scale of the output medium and color balance & saturation can be taken just about anywhere just like with pure digital grading. A C41 stock will be much more limited in these respects because it would primarily have to fit the requirements of RA4 paper. So unless ORWO actually departs from that basic premise and proceeds to make a C41 stock that won't print well anymore on RA4, they're making something that makes a couple of very fundamental choices at exposure time that the production team typically wants to control afterwards at least to an extent. Hence my earlier comment. This is not just about getting the film developed or scanned; this is about how the entire production is organized. For a film-based production, shifting from a more versatile ECN2 stock to a more limited C41 stock would be pretty far-reaching, unless you accept the look 'that the film gives you' as it is. Which is typically something you'd associate with small-scale indie producers. I hope this somehow clarifies my reasoning a bit more.
 

AgX

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I don't know how suitable the existing C-41 processing capacities are for processing long rolls. Maybe it's no problem at all, but ORWO said that they set up two new "C41 motion picture" processors.

The only long-roll/continuous C-41 35mm roller processors in Europe are located at few industrial photo-labs, but these may not even be apt to accept cine-rolls as these are made to accept proprietary rolls of spliced films.
Also they are running a washless process.

The other kind of long roll roller processors are designed for processing ECN films.
 

Donald Qualls

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I don't know how suitable the existing C-41 processing capacities are for processing long rolls.

And never mind 16 mm (how many mini-labs can still do 110, never mind fifty feet of 16 mm in a single roll?) and 65 mm (that's wider than 120, leader card machines that take 120 might accept it, but again, it's going to come in 400 foot rolls, the cassettes they use for 120 feed aren't anything like 8 inches I.D. to accept that roll length, never mind 1000 feet). Dip and dunk is right out; a six foot roll is about their limit -- so you'd have existing cine processors having to convert a line to C-41 chemistry.
 

Ten301

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Is it just me, or is anyone else not quite grasping ORWO’s logic with this product?

When the rumblings of this film and its Agfa heritage began to hit online, it sounded as though it was going to be an ECN-2 product, obviously not to compete with, but in some ways an alternative to, the Vision films, at least in a small way. Well, this it certainly is not.

However, the whole C41 process design without remjet when the entire film industry is already set-up for ECN-2 with remjet baffles me. Am I missing something here?
 
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