Longevity of toning solutions?

[GregY]

Shelf life whether in dry form or made up as a concentrate depends on many factors. The OP does not ask about shelf life as a powder or solution, but it can degenerate in either form.

Ferricyanide as a powder or in solution will break down to Ferrocyanide with poor storage, or as weak solution.

Ian

Not so sure of the exact question...it's pretty vague....
"(1) Does anyone know the shelf life of the bleach from a sepia kit?"

I've got a screwtop jar of potassium ferricyanide I've had for years. Still works like a charm.

 

[Ian Grant]

Not so sure of the exact question...it's pretty vague....
"(1) Does anyone know the shelf life of the bleach from a sepia kit?"

I've got a screwtop jar of potassium ferricyanide I've had for years. Still works like a charm.

I have had Ferricyanide solutions that are years old, but I've also had some degenerated, and Ferricyanide crystals breakdown to Ferrocyanide.

But let's get real, the OP has just started printing, this is a question that should be asked after a few years, maybe 5 to 10. I have chemicals made in the 1960s that are as good as new, although not all chemicals keep well.

Ian

 

[GregY]

I have had Ferricyanide solutions that are years old, but I've also had some degenerated, and Ferricyanide crystals breakdown to Ferrocyanide.

But let's get real, the OP has just started printing, this is a question that should be asked after a few years, maybe 5 to 10. I have chemicals made in the 1960s that are as good as new, although not all chemicals keep well.

Ian

Agreed, When i finished my gallon of Selenium toner i was trying to remember which house, which darkroom and what grade my kids were in......

 

[mshchem]

1970's

 

[dcy]

Not so sure of the exact question...it's pretty vague....
"(1) Does anyone know the shelf life of the bleach from a sepia kit?"

Looking back, I could have made that clearer.

The instructions in the kit tell you to pour the entire powder contents of the packages of potassium ferricyanide (20 g), potassium bromide (10 g), and sodium carbonate (20 g) into water to make a 1L solution that I am to use as the working solution every time.

I was asking about the longevity of this solution.

Incidentally, in using this kit I've noticed that this bleach is very fast. I found it difficult to do split toning because I couldn't pull the print out of the bleach fast enough. I then looked up online recipes and found that DIY formulas are usually much less concentrated. I think I'm going to dilute PF's bleach before I use it again.

 

[snusmumriken]

(2) Does anyone know the shelf life of the selenium working solution?

Read @Doremus Scudder's words of wisdom here, and elsewhere on Photrio.

 

[dcy]

Read @Doremus Scudder's words of wisdom here, and elsewhere on Photrio.

Wow. Thank you for sharing that link! This forum is a treasure trove of information.

Some highlights for me:

"First, if you see no change in the print, i.e., no change in D-max or no change in image color, toning is not occurring. It's that simple. Some papers don't tone at all in selenium or only with a rather strong solution. Some papers change color rapidly in a very weak solution. To repeat, however: no change = no toning happening.
...
My most important point: You never have to discard your selenium toner. Just filter and replenish and use it indefinitely... Replenishing and re-using the toner is more economical and more environmentally responsible.
...
If you see no change, then there's no toning happening. If you don't want any change in image tone, don't bother toning; you're not protecting your print, just wasting time
...
Keep your toning solution and re-use it. When toning times get too long, just add some concentrate."


I mixed selenium at 1:4 dilution and I am very unsatisfied with the toning I got. Even after 8 min, I am not 100% convinced that the increase in Dmax that I think I see isn't just wishful thinking on my part. I'm going to add more concentrate to my solution and I might re-tone one or two prints.

 

[GregY]

Wow. Thank you for sharing that link! This forum is a treasure trove of information.

Some highlights for me:

"First, if you see no change in the print, i.e., no change in D-max or no change in image color, toning is not occurring. It's that simple. Some papers don't tone at all in selenium or only with a rather strong solution. Some papers change color rapidly in a very weak solution. To repeat, however: no change = no toning happening.
...
My most important point: You never have to discard your selenium toner. Just filter and replenish and use it indefinitely... Replenishing and re-using the toner is more economical and more environmentally responsible.
...
If you see no change, then there's no toning happening. If you don't want any change in image tone, don't bother toning; you're not protecting your print, just wasting time
...
Keep your toning solution and re-use it. When toning times get too long, just add some concentrate."


I mixed selenium at 1:4 dilution and I am very unsatisfied with the toning I got. Even after 8 min, I am not 100% convinced that the increase in Dmax that I think I see isn't just wishful thinking on my part. I'm going to add more concentrate to my solution and I might re-tone one or two prints.

Papers vary in the degree to which they tone.... Ilford typically less than Foma for example. 1:4 is a pretty strong dilution.

 

[GregY]

dcy, Bruce Barnbaum's book The Art of Photography....would be another good one for you. He describes in detail his darkroom process....including toning, archival washing, selective bleaching. It's a good reference book. Here's a copy for not very much $

The Art of Photography: A Personal... book by Bruce Barnbaum

 

[dcy]

Papers vary in the degree to which they tone.... Ilford typically less than Foma for example. 1:4 is a pretty strong dilution.

Yeah. My intention was to get a strong effect. I was saddened that it was more subtle. I added a bit more concentrate to bring it to 1:3 which is the maximum concentration in Kodak's guideline --- it's also the example in Ilford's YT tutorial.

After another quick pass through the updated toner I had another look at the print on direct sunlight with the original print next to it. I am convinced that Dmax is higher and I am 70% sure that I see a color shift, but it's definitely very subtle. Clearly this is not the ideal paper for selenium toning.

dcy, Bruce Barnbaum's book The Art of Photography....would be another good one for you. He describes in detail his darkroom process....including toning, archival washing, selective bleaching. It's a good reference book. Here's a copy for not very much $

Indeed. Even with the $2 shipping it costs less that my lunch today. I just ordered it. Thanks for pointing me to it!

 

[dcy]

Papers vary in the degree to which they tone.... Ilford typically less than Foma for example.

One of the papers I tested was Arista Semi-Matte. I believe Arista papers are made by Foma. It didn't respond much to selenium either. Maybe there's a difference between the Arista-branded and Foma-branded papers. Or maybe I'm expecting too much from RC neutral tone papers.

I'm not going to buy expensive paper just to get a nicer hue with selenium. At least, not until I get a print that truly deserves it. The paper I use is 36% of the price of Ilford MG Cooltone.

 

[MattKing]

If the Arista (and Multi-Tone) papers are designed with similar design parameters as the previous version of Ilford RC paper - MGIV - they are fairly resistant to toning. The reason for that is that the sort of papers suited to general use, educational programs, new darkroom users and others with similar requirements generally are designed to give very similar results in a wide variety of developers and darkroom environments - consistency being a real advantage for the sort of users in those circumstances. One consequence of that drive for consistency is that for those papers it is relatively difficult to manipulate the "baked in" neutral image tone - i.e. they are resistant to toning.
Apparently, the current version of Ilford RC paper has pulled back on that consistent image tone criteria, in order to make it more responsive to toning.
In any event, you can probably achieve a bit more image tone change with selenium and the papers you are using, if you are willing to accept greatly extended toning times. You may not like the result though.

 

[mshchem]

One of the papers I tested was Arista Semi-Matte. I believe Arista papers are made by Foma. It didn't respond much to selenium either. Maybe there's a difference between the Arista-branded and Foma-branded papers. Or maybe I'm expecting too much from RC neutral tone papers.

I'm not going to buy expensive paper just to get a nicer hue with selenium. At least, not until I get a print that truly deserves it. The paper I use is 36% of the price of Ilford MG Cooltone.

Tim Rudman | Selenium/Sepia/Gold Prints

The personal homepage of fine art photographer Tim Rudman. View his galleries and read about his latest darkroom workshops.

www.timrudman.com

If you're worried about cost, you're in the wrong sandbox

 

[MattKing]

Tim Rudman | Selenium/Sepia/Gold Prints

The personal homepage of fine art photographer Tim Rudman. View his galleries and read about his latest darkroom workshops.

www.timrudman.com

If you're worried about cost, you're in the wrong sandbox

Thanks for that Tim Rudman link - I had not encountered it before.
His hard to find and afford Toning Book is one of my most used technical references.

 

[mshchem]

Get ya some of this, and prepare for maximum toning!

Foma Fomatone 131 VC FB Warmtone Semi-Glossy 5x7/100 Sheets

Foma Fomatone 131 VC FB Warmtone Semi-Glossy 5x7/100 Sheets - Foma Bohemia Ltd. in the Czech Republic is a producer of photographic materials with long tradition, since 1921. Since September 1997, Foma has been confirmed with a certification with the…

www.freestylephoto.com

 

[dcy]

If you're worried about cost, you're in the wrong sandbox

I don't understand.

 

[MattKing]

I don't understand.

Tim Rudman is a true artist, and the go to source for toning information. In order to achieve maximize the fine control and wonderful tone variability that toning offers, you have to accept that the best materials are expensive!
For example, gold toner is really nice:

 

[mshchem]

I don't understand.

Well, cost of analog printing is expensive. You're using a half frame camera, I suppose in part to save on the cost of film, that's cool. But to make a nice print, toning etc you should probably start with something like Ilford warmtone RC paper, buy a 100 sheet box of 5x7, take a dozen sheets and cut in half to 3 1/2 × 5 inch, which is still a huge enlargement for half frame and work on your skills.
Buy fresh developer and fixer while you are at it.

Otherwise there's nothing wrong with scanning your 24x17mm negatives, tweaking a bit in any old free software and printing using inkjet on real proper glossy inkjet paper.
I printed some scans I made of some of my father's Kodachrome slides on a very affordable Canon inkjet printer (less expensive than a Pentax 17) got tremendous quality.

My recommendation is if you're intent on toning start with a warmtone paper, Ilford's recommendation, start with stronger toner solution say 1 part concentrate and 3 parts water (250mL diluted to 1 L), you can always dilute the stronger dilution.

Enjoy and stay engaged here, lots of good folks here!!!

 

[mshchem]

Tim Rudman is a true artist, and the go to source for toning information. In order to achieve maximize the fine control and wonderful tone variability that toning offers, you have to accept that the best materials are expensive!
For example, gold toner is really nice:
View attachment 402379

Love this stuff. To get the true old time experience really need to make your own silver nitrate and gold chloride, being in the Dominion just take some of your good sterling silver coins and some nitric acid. Then a nice gold sovereign and some aqua regia. Make sure to stay well up wind

 

[dcy]

Well, cost of analog printing is expensive. You're using a half frame camera, I suppose in part to save on the cost of film, that's cool. But to make a nice print, toning etc you should probably start with something like Ilford warmtone RC paper, buy a 100 sheet box of 5x7, take a dozen sheets and cut in half to 3 1/2 × 5 inch, which is still a huge enlargement for half frame and work on your skills.

Thank you for your input. I hope you won't be offended if I ignore it. I consciously choose cheap materials because I value being able to shoot and print more than I value getting a result that people on the internet approve of. Also note that "work on your skills" and "buy the most expensive materials" are contradictory advice.

At the end of the day, my prints are made for an audience of one. Thanks to the help of this forum, I have already produced a couple of prints that I am honestly happy with, and they were printed with my cheap paper, developed with homemade developer, and shot on budget film, with a camera (Olympus PEN) that is vastly inferior to the one I now use.

Otherwise there's nothing wrong with scanning your 24x17mm negatives, tweaking a bit in any old free software and printing using inkjet on real proper glossy inkjet paper.

What's wrong with it is that I don't want to do it.

The one and only thing that this hobby is meant to achieve is to bring enjoyment to my life. So I try to optimize for that.

 

[mshchem]

Thank you for your input. I hope you won't be offended if I ignore it. I consciously choose cheap materials because I value being able to shoot and print more than I value getting a result that people on the internet approve of. Also note that "work on your skills" and "buy the most expensive materials" are contradictory advice.

At the end of the day, my prints are made for an audience of one. Thanks to the help of this forum, I have already produced a couple of prints that I am honestly happy with, and they were printed with my cheap paper, developed with homemade developer, and shot on budget film, with a camera (Olympus PEN) that is vastly inferior to the one I now use.




What's wrong with it is that I don't want to do it.

The one and only thing that this hobby is meant to achieve is to bring enjoyment to my life. So I try to optimize for that.

Peace

 

[MattKing]

MGIV RC in selenium:

Tatra T-87

• MattKing
• Oct 23, 2023
• 5

A friend of mine has restored and loves to drive his 1948 Tatra T-87.

MGIV RC Cooltone in Selenium:

Looped

• MattKing
• Nov 23, 2010
• 2

One of the prints I sent in the current Blind Print Exchange. This is a scan from an 11x14. It...

Polymax RC in Sepia II:

Postcard Exchange 12 - Driftwood

• MattKing
• Jan 1, 2008

November 2007
APUG Postcard Exchange Round 12
Mamiya 645 Pro-45mm lens--f 8 @ 1/125?
Kodak...

Oriental (I think) in Berg brown toner:

MGIV RC in selenium (IIRC):


MGIV RC in Berg brown toner (IIRC):


Subject of course to the usual caveats about how it is difficult to achieve consistency and accuracy when trying to faithfully reproduce on the internet how the toning actually looks in real life.

 

[mshchem]

MGIV RC in selenium:

Tatra T-87

• MattKing
• Oct 23, 2023
• 5

A friend of mine has restored and loves to drive his 1948 Tatra T-87.

MGIV RC Cooltone in Selenium:

Looped

• MattKing
• Nov 23, 2010
• 2

One of the prints I sent in the current Blind Print Exchange. This is a scan from an 11x14. It...

Polymax RC in Sepia II:

Postcard Exchange 12 - Driftwood

• MattKing
• Jan 1, 2008

November 2007
APUG Postcard Exchange Round 12
Mamiya 645 Pro-45mm lens--f 8 @ 1/125?
Kodak...

Oriental (I think) in Berg brown toner:
View attachment 402385
MGIV RC in selenium (IIRC):
View attachment 402386

MGIV RC in Berg brown toner (IIRC):

View attachment 402387
Subject of course to the usual caveats about how it is difficult to achieve consistency and accuracy when trying to faithfully reproduce on the internet how the toning actually looks in real life.

They're all nice. I think I may have inherited a bottle of the Berg brown toner. Now that I can tone out on the patio, should try dabbing with some stinky old brown toners. I remember back in the 20th century being hooked on Polytoner, Se and sulfide in one.

 

[koraks]

The instructions in the kit tell you to pour the entire powder contents of the packages of potassium ferricyanide (20 g), potassium bromide (10 g), and sodium carbonate (20 g) into water to make a 1L solution that I am to use as the working solution every time.

You don't have to do that. You can mix whatever quantity you like. Most of my darkroom prints are small, and I generally use flat-bottomed trays a lot, which means that I can generally get by with considerably less than 1000ml of working solution. The biggest quantity I typically use is 500ml, but something like a bleach I will generally mix in small amounts of 100-200ml mostly.

The best news, however, is that in general, a bleach of this composition tends to be stable for years, even in solution. I've never had one go bad and some of them I've had around literally for years. I generally don't use carbonate in them though; it's not needed. IDK to what extent the carbonate may affect stability; I frankly expect it doesn't matter either way.

 

[dcy]

MGIV RC in selenium:
...
MGIV RC Cooltone in Selenium:
...

Those look amazing.

I'm planning to grab some MGIV RC Cooltone at some point. It is only a small premium compared to the neutral tone. My current thinking is that I might stock two types of paper: the cheapest RC in the market and MGIV RC Cooltone for my favorite prints.

The main thing stopping me from grabbing some right now is that B&H only sells 5x7s in 100-pack units. I am hesitant to spend $80 on a single pack, but in the end, I'm sure that's exactly what I'll do.