Kodachrome with Rockland Polytoner colour couplers

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You lost me right there. :D I'm just not motivated to do the testing. I want someone else to perfect it so I can use it.

Thats like telling someone else to master playing the piano, hearing how good they sound and asking if the piano is any good? then expecting it to sound equally as great if you where playing the keys but weren't first bothered to learn how. You can expect to play the same beautiful music without practice. Photography is no different! The only way forward is through practice and experimentation.
 

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If I saw results that looked really promising (like you are describing...but I still haven't seen) I might be inclined to agree. Frankly the process sounds like a PIA than its worth given the results I've seen. And don't get me wrong they aren't bad, PE has posted a pretty good one but they just aren't enough to get me super excited about it. The majority that I've seen are "off". But I agree there is potential there, anfd I encourage others to get to work making improvements that I can later use. :smile:
 
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If I saw results that looked really promising (like you are describing...but I still haven't seen) I might be inclined to agree. Frankly the process sounds like a PIA than its worth given the results I've seen. And don't get me wrong they aren't bad, PE has posted a pretty good one but they just aren't enough to get me super excited about it. The majority that I've seen are "off". But I agree there is potential there, anfd I encourage others to get to work making improvements that I can later use. :smile:

What improvements? As someone who has extensively explored Ra-4 reversal I have learned the process doesn't need improvements. If you are serious and would like to see a sample I'm willing to go above and beyond, Private message me an address and I can post you a sample print using this process.
 

RPC

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As someone who has extensively explored Ra-4 reversal I have learned the process doesn't need improvements.

The process is plagued with high contrast and crossover. Have you solved those problems?
 
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The process is plagued with high contrast and crossover. Have you solved those problems?

Read my earlier posts here. I feel I'm starting to sound like a broken record! Yes I have solved the problems with this process. The process can actually be high contrast ...it an also be very very low contrast. you just need to experiment and the process can be anything you want it to be. It can also be low saturation in colour or high saturation. Every problem people have mentioned with this process I have solved. The process is flawless to me. I began testing in 2010 when ilfochrome was killed off. Being a commercial analog Ilfochrome printer I went in search for an analog alternative and l have deeply delved into this method. I have repeated myself multiple times on the properties of this process so this is my last post about it in this thread. lets return to the focus of this thread which is Kodachrome colour applications. Any further commercial inquiries regarding Ra-4 reversal please Private message me.
 

Photo Engineer

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I second everything that Steve said. I worked with it for a few years and turned out many very good photos, but some subjects are just not suitable. And even the ones you might consider "failures" can make some exceptional prints.

PE
 

MattKing

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What's a Shirley style transparency?
In my family's case, a Kodachrome slide with my mother in it.

More generally though, the reference slides and negatives that Kodak used over the years for calibration and other such things included pictures of people. And legend has it that the first such reference slide or negative used a staff member named "Shirley" as model.
 

RPC

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Read my earlier posts here. I feel I'm starting to sound like a broken record! Yes I have solved the problems with this process. The process can actually be high contrast ...it an also be very very low contrast. you just need to experiment and the process can be anything you want it to be. It can also be low saturation in colour or high saturation. Every problem people have mentioned with this process I have solved. The process is flawless to me. I began testing in 2010 when ilfochrome was killed off. Being a commercial analog Ilfochrome printer I went in search for an analog alternative and l have deeply delved into this method. I have repeated myself multiple times on the properties of this process so this is my last post about it in this thread. lets return to the focus of this thread which is Kodachrome colour applications. Any further commercial inquiries regarding Ra-4 reversal please Private message me.

I had read your posts. You could say it ten times but just saying "I have solved all the problems" and "it needs no further improvements" is like saying, "My low-temp C-41 process gets perfect results, trust me", as some have. Even if it is so, you should still expect there to be those who question it considering the known problems with it.
 
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I had read your posts. You could say it ten times but just saying "I have solved all the problems" and "it needs no further improvements" is like saying, "My low-temp C-41 process gets perfect results, trust me", as some have. Even if it is so, you should still expect there to be those who question it considering the known problems with it.

Low temp C-41 does not get you perfect results unless your going for the look low temp C-41 processing delivers. Personally having done temperature tests with C-41 I like to run my C-41 as recommended by kodak. I feel there are problems to playing a masterpiece on a piano if its out of tune and you have never practiced the music and have no idea how to read the notes but if you tune your instrument practice and read the notes you will discover beautiful music. this process is the exact same. As said above If anyone wants further proof P.M me and I can post you a working sample of this process. This is my last comment on the subject. lets please return this post to its original theme which is Kodachrome processing in colour. Another process many say cant be done but has and I believe will quite likely be done again by those who are willing to put in the trial and effort required.
 

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View attachment 155254 I had much more success today.., but by the looks of things I overdid the red re exposure and possibly the blue re exposure, leaving nothing for the magenta developer to actually develop. I can see the first hints of green in the grass, so maybe the yellow developer did work a little. I really have no clue haha. What does anyone think I should do to get more yellow and magenta in my image? Maybe reduce red and blue re exposure times and extend yellow and magenta times?

Like PE said, you need a colour chart.
I wanted to do this process also but did not have the time. I wanted to use 3 separate chromogenic developers also.
I have >50 rolls of Kodachrome 25 in my fridge.
What I wanted to do is first trying step by step, developing just 1 (one!) colour at the beginning to evaluate the times for developing and re-exposure.
If you take a picture of the colour chart and then, let's say, just do the cyan-processing (and the red re-exposure), the result just should show the cyan parts of the picture, so NO magenta or yellow parts of the colour chart at all. Then the times would be right.
Repeating this just for the yellow colour (blue exposure) should show only the yellow parts of the picture. To verify the combination of both steps, you can combine the 2 sheets of film and look through. Then you should see all colours of the testchart containing all cyan, green and yellow tones.
A red colour of the chart should be yellow and a blue part should be cyan and a magenta part should be blank.
After finding out the times for these 2 steps, you can do the complete process and just add the white exposure for the remaining magenta layer.
If too many parts of your picture go to magenta after this, the process of cyan and yellow did not go to the end (unexposed and undeveloped parts of the cyan and/or yellow layers were left).

For re-exposure, I planed to use LED lightsource red and blue because those should have a narrow spectral bandwidth not to expose unwanted layers of the film.
Your example seems like your red exposure also exposed most of the other 2 layers. So your time was too long or your lightsource was not narrow-band.
I think it is important to do the single steps first. So doing 2 kinds of "colour separations" for cyan and yellow.
Then you see 3 important things:
1. is the re-exposing time correct?
2. is the re-exposing light affecting wrong layers?
3. is the developer creating enough dye or any dye at all in the selected layer, so the mixture of both gives a right combined colour like GREEN?

As developers, I wanted to use RA-4 developer with added couplers, like naphtol for cyan,3-Methyl-5-pyrazolone for magenta and ethylacetoacetate for yellow. I used this for chromogenic developing B/W-Film and it works great.

Joachim
 

twelvetone12

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Hi Joachim,
(semi OT) just curious - where do you get the color couplers? I would like to try chromogenic dev of BW and the Rockland Polytoner seems quite difficult to obtain.
thanks!
 

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View attachment 155254 I had much more success today.., but by the looks of things I overdid the red re exposure and possibly the blue re exposure, leaving nothing for the magenta developer to actually develop. I can see the first hints of green in the grass, so maybe the yellow developer did work a little. I really have no clue haha. What does anyone think I should do to get more yellow and magenta in my image? Maybe reduce red and blue re exposure times and extend yellow and magenta times?

Hi Alex,

I hope you (and others) don't mind, but I took the opportunity to download your posted image and see what, if any, color content was actually there. I understand this is an analog forum, but I don't think there's anything inherently wrong in using technology to support analysis of your test results. In this case the scanned image is merely data.

For the first step, I used only linear processing techniques in photoshop. By this I mean I did not change the relative color content (did not adjust color balance or hue), but rather increased the color levels to more easily see what colors you had there. Philosophically, I treated your scan as an incredibly desaturated image.

color information 1.jpg


For the next step, I removed the cyan cast by first performing a color balance on the original image. Then I cranked up the saturation to extract the colors.

color information 2.jpg


So you are definitely on to something. There is color information there. Good luck.

Hope this helps,
Jason
 

JoJo

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Hi Joachim,
(semi OT) just curious - where do you get the color couplers? I would like to try chromogenic dev of BW and the Rockland Polytoner seems quite difficult to obtain.
thanks!

It is not easy to get them. Most companies don't sell to privates but I have a company, so ordered on my company name.
I got the naphtol and the acetate from a company called OMIKRON and the pyrazolone from ALFA AESAR. But all 3 are available at Alfa.
https://www.alfa.com/de/catalog/A12544/
https://www.alfa.com/de/catalog/A11862/
https://www.alfa.com/en/catalog/A11161/
Packages are quite big. But you only need between 0,5g naphtol or pyrazolone and 10ml of the acetate for each 100ml of developer.
The naphtol is unsoluble in water, so must be dissolved in alcohol first.
You should have experience in using toxic or hazardous chemicals.

Joachim
 

kb3lms

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"Hi Joachim,
(semi OT) just curious - where do you get the color couplers? I would like to try chromogenic dev of BW and the Rockland Polytoner seems quite difficult to obtain.
thanks!"

The couplers Joachim gives are readily available IFF you can find a place that will sell them to you as an individual, which is always the problem. If anyone has had success purchasing maybe they could let us know where to get it.

Freestyle lists Polytoner as being in stock on May 16th. That's probably the easiest and maybe cheapest way to get them. Does anyone know the quantity of coupler that comes with that kit?

The good thing is they all seem to have applications other than color couplers, which means they might be around for time to come.

-- Jason
 

Photo Engineer

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If they are not the actual Kodachrome couplers, then the hue and stability will be far poorer than the real ones.

PE
 

kb3lms

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They are definitely not, from every reference I have seen. Then again, I am not looking to process Kodachrome either.

1-naphthol is reported to be a blue, not cyan, coupler but the actual hue depends somewhat on the developer used. However, for an experiment, it is far cheaper than 4-chloro-1-naphthol or 2,4-dichloro-1-naphthol, which is the correct coupler. Maybe it is "cyan enough" to use, I don't know. In some references, the yellow and magenta couplers are reported to be usable, but not correct, for Kodachrome.

Fortunately, I don't have any unprocessed Kodachrome around so this is all academic to me!
 

Nzoomed

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I've got a silly question: Let's suppose someone actually manages to get all those fantastic colors we all remember Kodachrome had. Then what?

It's not like you can just go out and start buying rolls of Kodachrome. There's only a limited amount out there, and absolutely NONE of it is still 'unexpired'. I'd venture to say that the bulk of unexposed Kodachrome that still exists today is sprinkled liberally in the landfills of the world.

Sure, someone may have a goodly stash in their freezer, but the bigger issue is that the actual film that demands this process is and will remain unreplenished. So once (and only IF) the Holy Grail of K-14 processing is resurrected, there'll be a veritable orgy of rolls developed, and then....................




...................it will be all over.

If someone comes up with a reliable process, we could get Film Ferrania in Italy to produce it!
 

Nzoomed

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Please people enough. Most of the posts on this and other Kodachrome threads are so much blather. I can say this since I am probably one of very few people who have actually seen the processing equipment and who once applied to supervise and maintain it. The complexity and size of the machine was impressive. We don't need speculation. We don't need proof of concept experiments. Everything that needs to be known is already documented in fine detail. The bitter truth which so many refuse to accept is that the processing machines no longer exist. Long ago sold for scrap. Due to the complexity of the process modern processors can't handle Kodachrome. Given the continually shrinking market for slide film no one, let me repeat NO ONE is going to invest to build a processor or make film.


Kelvin Kittle had rescued the K-Lab from Rocky Mountain Photo Lab, so there is some equipment out there to process the stuff if the chemistry can be obtained.
 

Photo Engineer

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The chemistry is all in the patent, and the patent has been abandoned (that means that anyone is free to use the process). You can go to the patent and grab an image of it (PDF file) and then post it to the Wiki. I'm not going to bother. Oh, BTW, I posted some coupler names here on APUG.

One other note. Kodachrome was invented and maintained by Kodak as a COLOR film not a COLOUR film. I hope those of you using the Queens English note that and perhaps adjust the text accordingly. It would make us colonials feel ever so much at home reading about our own.

PE
 

MattKing

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One other note. Kodachrome was invented and maintained by Kodak as a COLOR film not a COLOUR film. I hope those of you using the Queens English note that and perhaps adjust the text accordingly. It would make us colonials feel ever so much at home reading about our own.
As one colonial to another, and a lifetime user of Kodak COLOUR films, I resemble that!

s-l225.jpg
 
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