Kodachrome with Rockland Polytoner colour couplers

[alexd101]

Hello, first post on here so i'll start with something complicated

After extensive reading I managed to find someone on here who some years ago (~2009) managed to atleast partially develop kodachrome with colours with the colour couplers from the Rockland polytoner kit. Has anyone else managed to do this? As most of the threads are a dead end.

I myself was planning to experiment with it using RA4 chemistry, mixing ~2g per 1L according to kodak patents. Im using RA4 as I have about 5L of it to play with haha. The raw chemicals in the kit are extreamly expensive to buy indervidually, and I can buy the kit for about £30. I know this is something thats been tried many times but im not one to give up without attempting for myself, especially since I managed to develop colour film with hair dye after having been told it would never work hahaha

Any tips and hints appreciated

Alex, 18, UK

 

[railwayman3]

Welcome to APUG !

Kodachrome (and its clones) was a unique colour film, as the couplers were within the developers and hence a much more complicated processing system than films where the couplers were in the individual layers of the emulsion, e.g. the Agfa and Ektachrome systems. A kit like the Rockwell one could probably produce an image in a singlecolour on any film, including B&W, but, to get a full-colour image on Kodachrome, you would have to reconstruct something like the actual Kodachrome system with a first developer to a B&W negative, followed by three colour developers in the colours yellow, magenta and cyan.

The various Kodachrome patents and the manual for the K-lab machine are on the web, and there are probably linked in the various old "Kodachrome" threads on here. All-in-all, very complicated !

(And, don't forget that RA-chemicals are for coupler-in-emulsion materials, so a totally different system to Kodachrome,,,,I suggest you would be wasting time and materials trying that route with Kodachrome.)

 

[falotico]

Let me applaud alexd101 for this ambitious project to color develop Kodachrome. The last commercial lab to develop Kodachrome ended this service in 2005. This caused a lot of controversy here on APUG including a running gag that we would chain Photo Engineer (PE) to a bench in a barn somewhere and force him to develop Kodachrome. Some people had valuable color images which they had captured on Kodachrome and now had no way to develop the film. PE was mentioned because at one time he had several patents on Kodachrome film.

Stephen Frizza reported that he developed some Kodachrome images using a homemade process. Part of this discussion appears here:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

A year ago I had lunch with PE and outlined a process to develop Kodachrome using Polytoner couplers and E-6 chemistry--the chemistry used to develop Ektachrome slides. I believe he agreed in principle to the theory, but I don't want to put words into his mouth.

A reversal process is used to develop Kodachrome. E-6 is such a process. Initially the film is developed with a black and white developer and development is stopped without using a strong acid. Now the film has three undeveloped images which must be developed into three overlaying dye images. These images are cyan, yellow and magenta. So the film must be developed three more times to develop each of the three dye layers. You must use a color developer to develop dye images.

In Kodachrome the color developer must contain the proper dye-coupler. Development of the cyan layer must contain the cyan coupler; the developer for the yellow layer must contain the yellow coupler and the magenta developer must contain the magenta coupler. The E-6 color developer will probably work with the Polytoner couplers. Also, the C-41 color developer should probably work. You could test a mixture of the developer and couplers on photographic paper or some unexposed film to be sure.

Here are the ROCKLAND POLYTONER couplers:

Magenta (called red) coupler, ten per cent
4-NITROPHENYLACETRONITRILE (sic)

Yellow coupler, ten per cont
P-CHLOROACETOACETANILIDE

Cyan (called blue) coupler, ten per cent
2,4 DICHLORO 1-NAPHTHOL

Each coupler in a 90% solution of
2-BUTANONE (METHYL ETHYL KETONE) (MEK)

(from http://www.freestylephoto.biz/pdf/msds/rockland/Polytoner_Part_3.pdf).

In "Principles of Color Photography", Evans, Hanson, Brewer, edition 1953 on page 261 lists the following dye couplers as suitable for Kodachrome:

cyan
2,4-dichloro-1-naphthol

magenta
p-nitrobenzyl-cyanide

yellow
naphthoylacetanilide

Notice that the Polytone cyan coupler is the same chemical that Evans, Hanson and Brewer recommend.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

Try inkjet the couplers on paper.

 

[Mustafa Umut Sarac]

source your chemicals from alibaba.com , 1/1000 the price of usa sigma.
there are special films to print your transparent inkjet. source from china , than mix with a fast evoporating medium , find a very old inkjet printer and here you go. old printers print lots of chemicals , not new ones , they are sensitive.
pe advised to me start with cyan because its strange and left toe does not mix with others. it stands alone. he says cyan color gives the kodachrome colors. by the way , there are 48 volumes of chemical synthesis books in one serie. you can download from russian sites - use google live translate - and than may be you can synthesis above chemicals . volumes are english. contact with photo engineer - forum member - kodachrome patent owner.

 

[MattKing]

The last commercial lab to develop Kodachrome ended this service in 2005.

Actually, it was a bit more recent - 2010.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You can actually make tricolor exposures on film and develop to a positive image using these couplers as the color developers (3 are needed), and then you bind the negatives together in register to make a single positive image. It might be easier to make the tricolor negatives and then print them onto film and develop the "prints" in the 3 developers rather than go direct.

Developing color film in the right B&W developer can give the appearance of color due to the retention of sensitizing dyes in the emulsion layers. This is a short lived illusion that will fade as the dyes fade.

If you use hair dye, the current US reducing agent is an analog of CD4 designed to prevent much of the allergic reaction you can expect exposed for a long time to CD4. The colorant for the "red" is a pyrazolone, which is a common magenta dye former. IDK OTOMH what the other dye formers are, but the hair dye solution containing the CD4 analog should give a weak color image all on its own. BTW, this is a recent "development" in the US hair dye market that happened in the UK and OZ much earlier. These dyes would be weak and probably subject to fade.

PE

 

[falotico]

On the shelf in my refrigerator still in its box is a fresh roll, 36 exposures, of Kodachrome 64 from 2007. I bought it on Ebay. One day when I am confident of my chemistry I will try to duplicate Frizza's success and process a few frames in full color. I wonder if alexd101 has a supply of the film which he plans to experiment with?

One day perhaps we will be able to pull some color images from all of the exposed Kodachrome that couldn't be developed before 2010 (not 2005--sorry). I would support such a project.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Contact Steve Frizza then, not me.

PE

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Studying Kodachrome and its processing by reading articles the 'net, I don't understand how the magenta developer and coupler reaches the blue-green sensitive layer which resides between the yellow filter and the blue-red sensitive layer:

This image is from:

Dead Link Removed


Does the magenta developer simply just permeate the other layers?

 

[falotico]

Yes, the magenta developer permeates all the layers. No magenta dye is formed in the yellow or cyan layers because all the silver halide grains have already been developed in those layers. The dye is formed only when the developer develops a grain of silver halide. Once the developer molecule has lost its electrons by developing the silver halide (typically silver bromide) then the developer molecule will "couple" with the dye coupler. No development, no coupling and hence no dye is formed.

Four developments are required to process Kodachrome. First, the black and white development turns all the latent images into silver metal. These silver molecules are now rendered unable to affect any color developer molecule, so no dye will be formed in the areas of the latent image. Since the latent image is a negative no dye will be formed corresponding to a negative image.

Next, the cyan layer is developed. This layer is sensitive to red light and is located next to the transparent plastic base of the film. So red light is projected through the transparent back of the film and this light exposes only the undeveloped silver halide grains in the cyan layer. The other layers are not affected because these layers are not sensitive to red light. These exposed grains are now developed with a color developer containing a cyan coupler which leaves a cyan dye image in that layer.

Third development is of the top layer which is sensitive to blue light. An exposure to blue light is given to the top of the film and then those silver halide grains are developed with a color developer containing a yellow coupler. This leaves a yellow positive image in the top layer.

Fourth and finally the undeveloped grains of the middle layer are exposed chemically using a reducing agent like stannous chloride. Then these are developed with a color developer containing a magenta coupler. Now the developed film has three layers containing positive images of the cyan, yellow and magenta elements of the scene photographed. The developed silver grains are washed out using a formula like Farmer's reducer.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

"One day when I am confident of my chemistry I will try to duplicate Frizza's success and process a few frames in full color. I wonder if alexd101 has a supply of the film which he plans to experiment with?

One day perhaps we will be able to pull some color images from all of the exposed Kodachrome that couldn't be developed before 2010 (not 2005--sorry). I would support such a project."

Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never is, but always to be blessed:
The soul, uneasy and confined from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.

– Alexander Pope

In the case of Kodachrome the hope is misguided and impractical. As with some many things the devil is in the details. Each step in the process is in theory fairly simple. Getting them all to work correctly and in concert is another matter.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Yes, the magenta developer permeates all the layers. No magenta dye is formed in the yellow or cyan layers because all the silver halide grains have already been developed in those layers. The dye is formed only when the developer develops a grain of silver halide. Once the developer molecule has lost its electrons by developing the silver halide (typically silver bromide) then the developer molecule will "couple" with the dye coupler. No development, no coupling and hence no dye is formed.

Four developments are required to process Kodachrome. First, the black and white development turns all the latent images into silver metal. These silver molecules are now rendered unable to affect any color developer molecule, so no dye will be formed in the areas of the latent image. Since the latent image is a negative no dye will be formed corresponding to a negative image.

Next, the cyan layer is developed. This layer is sensitive to red light and is located next to the transparent plastic base of the film. So red light is projected through the transparent back of the film and this light exposes only the undeveloped silver halide grains in the cyan layer. The other layers are not affected because these layers are not sensitive to red light.
...

Thank you for providing that level of detail - I truly appreciate it; it answers many questions I had.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Whenever Kodachrome processing comes up the emphasis is on the chemistry involved. However the composition of the various baths has been published. The sticking point is the processing equipment. This is not something you are going to do with a SS tank and a water bath. I quote from Frizza's post.

"While the thread states HOME processing people should be aware that I am working in a fully equip professional photographic lab which without I could not have done this process. (emphasis is mine)

While Kodachrome is process K-14 I did not strictly process this in K-14 chemistry. It was processed using an butchered version of this process and other improvised adaptations."

It might also be point out that current color slide processing equipment is not capable of handling all the many baths that K-14 requires.

 

[falotico]

As far as I know Kodachrome film cannot be developed anywhere on planet Earth. To do it as well as it was done before 2010 would require restarting several sub industries to manufacture all the special chemicals, as well as repairing very expensive processing machines. This probably will not happen. So if we want to retrieve color images from exposed K film material, we will have to improvise a solution. What happened to that old "Can do!" attitude?

I believe a color image from Kodachrome is more valuable than simply treating the film as black and white stock. Even if the color values are faded or out of balance it would be possible to scan the developed film and correct for these problems. Not perfect, perhaps, but at least you will have preserved the color images. To me, processing the material as black and white would be an unacceptable substitute. A trip to Catalina is not the same as a trip to Hawaii.

 

[trondsi]

Holy smokes, I'm impressed with people's knowledge here. You guys should be able to recreate the film and development process

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Many have mentioned that Kodachrome was discontinued due to lack of demand - that unsold boxes were still on the shelves when it was discontinued. Definitely sad.

I do wonder how its sales compared to other transparency films at the time though.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

One of the problems that contributed to Kodachrome's demise was that the film had to be mailed away for processing. The users had to experience the unavoidable delay of one to two weeks on average. Other slide films could be processed locally with a much smaller delay. So our society's need for instant gratification was also a contributing factor.

 

[pdeeh]

So our society's need for instant gratification was also a contributing factor.

Surely that only started with the advent of digital photography and then only for those born after about 1990?
Before that, as we know, all was perfect in the (then) best of all possible worlds !

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Surely that only started with the advent of digital photography and then only for those born after about 1990?

The quest for instant gratification - 'twas earlier than you think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotomat

 

[MattKing]

The quest for instant gratification - 'twas earlier than you think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fotomat

I used to hand my exposed Kodachrome to my Dad, he would take them to the Kodak lab he worked at (as Customer Service manager, et al) and I would usually have them back either that day or sometimes the next.

Almost instant gratification .

A good quality high speed (1 hour to one day) development and print lab really did provide a good result though.

 

[ME Super]

And you'll be waiting at least 52 more years. The iPhone was first released in June 2007, so almost 9 years ago.

 

[alexd101]

Very sorry I have not read and replied to this thread, I have been very busy studying.

On the shelf in my refrigerator still in its box is a fresh roll, 36 exposures, of Kodachrome 64 from 2007. I bought it on Ebay. One day when I am confident of my chemistry I will try to duplicate Frizza's success and process a few frames in full color. I wonder if alexd101 has a supply of the film which he plans to experiment with?

One day perhaps we will be able to pull some color images from all of the exposed Kodachrome that couldn't be developed before 2010 (not 2005--sorry). I would support such a project.

I obtained a couple of K64 rolls on ebay, expired 2001 so will shoot at EI25. There seems to be a small stream of 35mm kodachrome on ebay uk, and an amount of super 8 kodachrome which could be usefull for testing with in the near future.

Either tommorow or friday I will start using the kit and will post results asap, thank you all for replying!

 

[EdSawyer]

how about saving things on the fence right now that could disappear or may have already? Like FP100C. Would be cool to resurrect DIY K-chrome developing of course.

 

[Athiril]

There's some Rockland Polytoner kits on the shelf here, curious about trying this out.