Kodachrome with Rockland Polytoner colour couplers

[Nzoomed]

This patent has been quoted and otherwise mentioned here several times. I'm surprised that you missed it.

PE

Ive seen several other documents posted here, many pages longer than this and while they contained alot of information, i had to scan through the pages to find anything relevant.

 

[JoJo]

Hi,

I did some experiment at the weekend.
This is not for doing Kodachrome processing in any commercial way. It was just for playing around.
I used some short strips of Kodachrome 25 and put it into the camera for one shot.
Processing was done in trays, developed by sight using nightvision infrared glasses.

For first developer I used standard E-6 FD.
The color developers were RA-4 developer added naphtol for cyan, pyrazolone for magenta and ethyacetoacetate for yellow.
Naphtol is a horrible stuff. It must be dissolved in alcohol and after a while it formes sticky chunks of blue material swimming on bottom of the developer.
I used 10 trays:
1. prewash in sodium carbonate solution to remove remjet layer
2. wash
3. first developer
4. wash
5. cyan developer
6. wash
7. yellow developer
8. wash (same tray like 6.)
9. magenta developer
10. wash (same tray like 6.)
11. blix
12. wash

processing steps were:
1. prewash some seconds and rubbing away the remjet by hand in the washing tray
2. first developer E-6 around 35 deg. C 5 Minutes (could be longer but I did not want to waste too much time)
3. washing away the first developer
4. exposing the cyan layer through the back layer by a small red LED for 30 seconds
5. cyan developing 3 minutes at 30°C (had be sure the film does not hit the bottom of the tray, because of some chunks of naphtol sticking on the film)
6. washing
7. exposing the yellow layer from the front side of the film by a blue LED for 30 seconds
8. yellow deveoper 3 minutes at 30°C
9. washing
10. switch on room light. The film seems complete black now. I exposed the middle layer from both sides for 2 minutes with the bright room light.
Exposing must be very intense because the middle layer is now between 2 complete black layers and not much light goes through.
11. magenta developer 3 minutes under roomlight
12. wash
13. bleach fix for about 5 minutes

The first picture shows the result.

There is too much cyan. The problem was, that the yellow dye is very weak. I don't know why, but the yellow developer seems not to work very well with the film or with the RA-4 developer. I tested some B/W-paper in it and there was a very strong yellow. A bit greenish.
With Kodachrome, the result was a bit brownish and very less. I tested also longer exposing times with the blue LED but no difference.
But you can clearly see the colors.
The second picture is enhanced in photoshop.

What did I learn?
It is a hell of work and the results cannot be used to do serious photography.
The other problem is that I don't see any way to do processing with a complete film on a spiral. The color exposing steps could only be done by unspooling the film and spooling it back for developing. It may work for single sheet processing. But if you don't have any infrared view and must handle 10 trays in darkness, you will have a big mess instead of fun

The result looks a bit like a very old historic color photography but it works.

Joachim

 

[Stephen Frizza]

Hi,

I did some experiment at the weekend.
This is not for doing Kodachrome processing in any commercial way. It was just for playing around.
I used some short strips of Kodachrome 25 and put it into the camera for one shot.
Processing was done in trays, developed by sight using nightvision infrared glasses.

For first developer I used standard E-6 FD.
The color developers were RA-4 developer added naphtol for cyan, pyrazolone for magenta and ethyacetoacetate for yellow.
Naphtol is a horrible stuff. It must be dissolved in alcohol and after a while it formes sticky chunks of blue material swimming on bottom of the developer.
I used 10 trays:
1. prewash in sodium carbonate solution to remove remjet layer
2. wash
3. first developer
4. wash
5. cyan developer
6. wash
7. yellow developer
8. wash (same tray like 6.)
9. magenta developer
10. wash (same tray like 6.)
11. blix
12. wash

processing steps were:
1. prewash some seconds and rubbing away the remjet by hand in the washing tray
2. first developer E-6 around 35 deg. C 5 Minutes (could be longer but I did not want to waste too much time)
3. washing away the first developer
4. exposing the cyan layer through the back layer by a small red LED for 30 seconds
5. cyan developing 3 minutes at 30°C (had be sure the film does not hit the bottom of the tray, because of some chunks of naphtol sticking on the film)
6. washing
7. exposing the yellow layer from the front side of the film by a blue LED for 30 seconds
8. yellow deveoper 3 minutes at 30°C
9. washing
10. switch on room light. The film seems complete black now. I exposed the middle layer from both sides for 2 minutes with the bright room light.
Exposing must be very intense because the middle layer is now between 2 complete black layers and not much light goes through.
11. magenta developer 3 minutes under roomlight
12. wash
13. bleach fix for about 5 minutes

The first picture shows the result.
View attachment 158026
There is too much cyan. The problem was, that the yellow dye is very weak. I don't know why, but the yellow developer seems not to work very well with the film or with the RA-4 developer. I tested some B/W-paper in it and there was a very strong yellow. A bit greenish.
With Kodachrome, the result was a bit brownish and very less. I tested also longer exposing times with the blue LED but no difference.
But you can clearly see the colors.
The second picture is enhanced in photoshop.
View attachment 158027

What did I learn?
It is a hell of work and the results cannot be used to do serious photography.
The other problem is that I don't see any way to do processing with a complete film on a spiral. The color exposing steps could only be done by unspooling the film and spooling it back for developing. It may work for single sheet processing. But if you don't have any infrared view and must handle 10 trays in darkness, you will have a big mess instead of fun

The result looks a bit like a very old historic color photography but it works.

Joachim

Congratulations on this result! Will you be conducting more tests? I faced the same issues as you however I did not do my exposures with LED. Instead of tray processing can you use small tank and hang the film in a hand line procesing set up? I found this makes it far easier ( I can PM you photos of my set up when I do this) will you try alternate dyes? if so let me know and I may offer some formulas / suggestion to you. I'm really glad to see someone else working out methods to process Kodachrome in colour. It has been long overdue and I highly respect you for your work.

 

[bvy]

Great work! Keep this up and you may have a profitable (if short-lived) sideline on your hands.

 

[Photo Engineer]

You may be seeing the formation of Leuco (colorless) dye in this process. It can be eliminated by using a ferricyanide bleach and then a fix with a wash in between. This may double the yellow dye formed. It may also increase some of the others. And, they are all pH sensitive.

PE

 

[kruiwagen]

Good job! I love seeing people experiment with Kodachrome development

 

[Nzoomed]

Hi,

I did some experiment at the weekend.
This is not for doing Kodachrome processing in any commercial way. It was just for playing around.
I used some short strips of Kodachrome 25 and put it into the camera for one shot.
Processing was done in trays, developed by sight using nightvision infrared glasses.

For first developer I used standard E-6 FD.
The color developers were RA-4 developer added naphtol for cyan, pyrazolone for magenta and ethyacetoacetate for yellow.
Naphtol is a horrible stuff. It must be dissolved in alcohol and after a while it formes sticky chunks of blue material swimming on bottom of the developer.
I used 10 trays:
1. prewash in sodium carbonate solution to remove remjet layer
2. wash
3. first developer
4. wash
5. cyan developer
6. wash
7. yellow developer
8. wash (same tray like 6.)
9. magenta developer
10. wash (same tray like 6.)
11. blix
12. wash

processing steps were:
1. prewash some seconds and rubbing away the remjet by hand in the washing tray
2. first developer E-6 around 35 deg. C 5 Minutes (could be longer but I did not want to waste too much time)
3. washing away the first developer
4. exposing the cyan layer through the back layer by a small red LED for 30 seconds
5. cyan developing 3 minutes at 30°C (had be sure the film does not hit the bottom of the tray, because of some chunks of naphtol sticking on the film)
6. washing
7. exposing the yellow layer from the front side of the film by a blue LED for 30 seconds
8. yellow deveoper 3 minutes at 30°C
9. washing
10. switch on room light. The film seems complete black now. I exposed the middle layer from both sides for 2 minutes with the bright room light.
Exposing must be very intense because the middle layer is now between 2 complete black layers and not much light goes through.
11. magenta developer 3 minutes under roomlight
12. wash
13. bleach fix for about 5 minutes

The first picture shows the result.
View attachment 158026
There is too much cyan. The problem was, that the yellow dye is very weak. I don't know why, but the yellow developer seems not to work very well with the film or with the RA-4 developer. I tested some B/W-paper in it and there was a very strong yellow. A bit greenish.
With Kodachrome, the result was a bit brownish and very less. I tested also longer exposing times with the blue LED but no difference.
But you can clearly see the colors.
The second picture is enhanced in photoshop.
View attachment 158027

What did I learn?
It is a hell of work and the results cannot be used to do serious photography.
The other problem is that I don't see any way to do processing with a complete film on a spiral. The color exposing steps could only be done by unspooling the film and spooling it back for developing. It may work for single sheet processing. But if you don't have any infrared view and must handle 10 trays in darkness, you will have a big mess instead of fun

The result looks a bit like a very old historic color photography but it works.

Joachim

Congratulations on your efforts!

Its great to see others having a go at something that is not easy!
I hope it sparks more people to do the same thing and experiment and continue to refine on your efforts.
I might play around with my K64 when i get a chance, even if the results are not perfect, i might not mind the vintage effects.

 

[twelvetone12]

@JoJo: Congratulations! A curiosity: why did you use RA4 color dev and nod E6 or C41 color developers? The red led was a standard 5mm "opaque" one or the super bright ones?
Thanks!

 

[Rudeofus]

@JoJo: Congratulations! A curiosity: why did you use RA4 color dev and nod E6 or C41 color developers? The red led was a standard 5mm "opaque" one or the super bright ones?

Regardless of what JoJo's answer may be: most E6 kits provide an E6 CD which also contains the re-exposure agent, therefore most E6 CDs are unsuitable for Kodachrome work, especially those from 3-bath-kits.

And one more thing: neither RA-4, nor C-41 or E-6 CD contains the correct dev agent.

 

[twelvetone12]

Yes I know that, but it is a convenient off the shelf approximation.

 

[Rudeofus]

Yes I know that, but it is a convenient off the shelf approximation.

With that re-exposure agent in there, E6 CD is not even close. In Kodachrome, you selectively expose each layer before color developing it, and that re-exposure agent would make this selective exposure moot.

 

[twelvetone12]

Well you can still use it for the intermediate layer, which is reversed using a fogging agent and not re exposure

 

[ME Super]

IIRC you want to match the developing agent with the color coupler. The lastest Kodachrome process used at least two different colour developers - CD-3 and CD-6. I don't remember if there was a third one (CD-4) used or not.

If all your color couplers are compatible with CD-3, you could use either RA-4 CD or E-6 CD, but be wary of using the 3-bath E-6 CD, as it contains the fogging agent (as twelvetoone12 said, you could use it for the green layer as it's the last layer developed and skip the light exposure). If you're using the E-6 CD from the 6-bath E-6, the fogging agent is separate from the CD, and you'd be okay. Still 3 different color developer solutions though - one for each of RGB.

 

[Photo Engineer]

CD6 and CD3 are similar in hue and polarity, but CD6 is far more active and has better image stability.

PE

 

[kb3lms]

Joachim and I have PM'ed on the side. I've tried this with just a plain b/w film (one I made) and got the same brownish result instead of yellow in the ethyl acetoacetate yellow coupler. I did use a Ferricyanide bleach and not a blix. What I did not do, because I forgot, was to use a sulfite clearing bath between the color developer and the bleach. Both of us developed in RA-4 color developer, which is based on CD-3. (Mine is Kodak's RA/RT) Would missing the sulfite clear give the brown instead of yellow?

The pyrazalone coupler makes a good magenta. 1-naphthol yields a blue dye, not cyan, as shown in the Cyan stripe in Joachim's image. It is, however, MUCH cheaper for an experiment than 2,4-dichloro-1-naphthol, which is a correct coupler.

I have a Kodachrome developer recipe that Steve Frizza (IIRC) posted that shows Diethylparaphenylenediamine as the yellow color developer. Maybe that makes the difference? Possibly Steve could comment on what he used for the yellow CD? Diethylparaphenylenediamine is kind of expensive, too.

 

[Athiril]

Missing the sulphite causes staining.

 

[Nzoomed]

Joachim and I have PM'ed on the side. I've tried this with just a plain b/w film (one I made) and got the same brownish result instead of yellow in the ethyl acetoacetate yellow coupler. I did use a Ferricyanide bleach and not a blix. What I did not do, because I forgot, was to use a sulfite clearing bath between the color developer and the bleach. Both of us developed in RA-4 color developer, which is based on CD-3. (Mine is Kodak's RA/RT) Would missing the sulfite clear give the brown instead of yellow?

The pyrazalone coupler makes a good magenta. 1-naphthol yields a blue dye, not cyan, as shown in the Cyan stripe in Joachim's image. It is, however, MUCH cheaper for an experiment than 2,4-dichloro-1-naphthol, which is a correct coupler.

I have a Kodachrome developer recipe that Steve Frizza (IIRC) posted that shows Diethylparaphenylenediamine as the yellow color developer. Maybe that makes the difference? Possibly Steve could comment on what he used for the yellow CD? Diethylparaphenylenediamine is kind of expensive, too.

I know the yellow coupler was available on alibaba when i looked some time back, not too sure of the others.

 

[A_Caver]

I have seen a lot of places that have the current color couplers listed, but they don't actually have them. They are re-sellers of the items from Acros Organic. Acros no longer manufactures them. I was able to purchase two of them a few years ago, but not all three, and CD-6 is also no longer available.

I have included a test I did a few years ago with alternate couplers and color developers. I'm still experimenting, to get it just right, and consistent.

 

[Nzoomed]

I have seen a lot of places that have the current color couplers listed, but they don't actually have them. They are re-sellers of the items from Acros Organic. Acros no longer manufactures them. I was able to purchase two of them a few years ago, but not all three, and CD-6 is also no longer available.

I have included a test I did a few years ago with alternate couplers and color developers. I'm still experimenting, to get it just right, and consistent.
View attachment 158187

Not bad results considering the chemistry is not right.

I know Steve used some alternative couplers and developers, does anyone know what chemicals he used?
I dont think he has mentioned it anywhere on APUG.

 

[A_Caver]

I believe Steve posted his formulas on-line. They are very similar (if not the same IIRC) to the formulas given on pgs 520-521 of "The Photographic Process" by Mack and Martin 1939. These formulas work with the older Kodachromes, but will give a haze on the newer ones due to changes in the emulsions.

I used similar couplers in the example I posted last week, but completely different formulations to deal with the more modern emulsion characteristics. I am still continuing my experiments, and hopefully will have more to post in the near future.

 

[Nzoomed]

I believe Steve posted his formulas on-line. They are very similar (if not the same IIRC) to the formulas given on pgs 520-521 of "The Photographic Process" by Mack and Martin 1939. These formulas work with the older Kodachromes, but will give a haze on the newer ones due to changes in the emulsions.

I used similar couplers in the example I posted last week, but completely different formulations to deal with the more modern emulsion characteristics. I am still continuing my experiments, and hopefully will have more to post in the near future.

Sweet, looking forward to it!
I think handling a full 36Exp roll will be tricky also, if you have to cut into small strips, you have the very high risk of cutting frames in half.
I might be able to design and 3D print a small unit with rollers with a speed controlled motor to correctly do the exposures across the lamps etc.

 

[kb3lms]

So here was en experiment I tried tonight. My football game was cancelled because of rain so I had a bit of time to play.

I made a small batch of the yellow developer posted in the Kodachrome formula in Steve Frizza's original posting with the exception of substituting CD-3 for the Diethylparaphenylenediamine. Instead of 1 liter I scaled down to 100 ml.

Yellow Developer
Full-Scale Scaled
Part A
Water 1000 100 ml
CD-3 10 1 gm
Sodium Sulfite 5 0.5 gm
Sodium Carbonate 20 2 gm
Potassium Bromide 0.24 0.024 gm

Part B
Alcohol 50 5 ml
Ethyl Acetoacetate 1 0.1 gm

For use, add 0.5 part B to 10 parts A. Does not keep once mixed.

Well, the results were disappointing. All tests were done with simple film clips fully exposed. Each test successfully developed the "image" to silver.
All tests at room temperature. Film sample was approximately 1 35mm frame in size.

Process was:
1) Develop 5 min.
2) Wash
3) Ferricyanide Bleach
4) Wash
5) Fix in C-41 Fixer

Test 1: proportions as directed: 20ml Part A to 1ml Part B developed 5 minutes. No visible dye formed. Completely clear.

Test 2: proportions: 20ml Part A to 3 ml Part B and developed 5 minutes. No visible dye formed. Completely clear.

Test 3: Add a bit more of Ethyl Acetoacetate to part B. 20ml Part A to ~7ml Part B (adulterated). No visible dye formed. Completely clear.

Control Test: since the above produced no color, repeated RA-4 developer (20ml) and EAA (1ml): normal brownish color results.

Based on this test, it would appear that CD-3 is not a developer that will work with this coupler to form a yellow dye in film. I would hazard a guess that CD-4 is no more likely to work. I don't have any of the Diethylparaphenylenediamine to try.

As such, this does not appear to be a way forward. Joachim says it works with paper, but looks like we need something else for film.

-- Jason

 

[Photo Engineer]

Ethyl Acetoacetate is not the right coupler.

So.................

PE

 

[kb3lms]

No, it is not, not with CD-3 or 4 anyway. I feel a little like Thomas Edison with light bulbs.

I do see references to p-nitroacetoacetanilide. No idea if it is something one can obtain.

 

[Athiril]

iirc some couplers require benzyl alcohol