In praise of old light meters

[Sirius Glass]

Not intentionally; I may have misunderstood your comment or not expressed myself clearly and acutely enough. I misspoke, it seems, as I re-read my reply.

A 200 setting and a 400 setting will definitely give a 1-stop difference.

What I was trying to say is that meters did not change because of the safety factor change.

Correct. The meters stayed the same; the film speed doubled.

If you set 400 on a pre-1960 meter film speed dial, would it recommend the same camera setting as a post ASA change meter also set to 400?
I don't think it will, because, for the same film rating number (not the same film) the ASA standard provided for more exposure prior to 1960 than it did after 1960.

Again the first sentence is correct. I was there when it happened. Ektachrome when from 32 ASA to 64 ASA. Tri-X went from 200 ASA to 400 ASA.

And you whippersnappers think you know something. Harrumph!

 

[Helge]

A half stop difference is quite possible but is more likely a result in how you held the meter. The Weston instructions discuss this... and I assure you that it makes a difference.

I think the "by design" discussion you are recalling is about the manufacturer's decision on constants, K and C, which is common to all meters. Some have incorrectly hypothesized that these constants are so profound that they make a big difference (they don't) and that it is manipulation by the manufacturers to trick photographers with incorrect exposure recommendations (it isn't). The effect of these metering constants is rather subtle, especially when compared to film speed "safety factors", which Matt alluded to but in the wrong context for this discussion.

I’m holding it according to the manual. A tad downwards.
But my test measurement was done in daylight pointed to a white wall.
With the measurement read/stop done at exactly the same moment.
So that should take spectral sensitivity differences and changing light out of the equation.
I also checked it against my best Ikophot of approximately the same vintage.
It actually seemed to agree a bit more with that one. Though it’s hard to be sure since the Ikophot does not have as precise markings on the dial.

 

[MattKing]

Again the first sentence is correct. I was there when it happened. Ektachrome when from 32 ASA to 64 ASA. Tri-X went from 200 ASA to 400 ASA.

And when that happened, did you change the speed setting on your meter?
And when you did, did the meter tell you to change the exposure setting on your camera?
And what exposure setting did a newer, post 1960 meter recommend if it was the set to the same ASA as the older meter?

 

[MattKing]

FWIW, I was 4 years old in 1960.

 

[Sirius Glass]

And when that happened, did you change the speed setting on your meter?
And when you did, did the meter tell you to change the exposure setting on your camera?
And what exposure setting did a newer, post 1960 meter recommend if it was the set to the same ASA as the older meter?

All the instructions said to raise the ASA setting to twice the speed. No one was including Ansel Adams recommended endless senseless repeated Zone System testing. People just did it without any trucker demonstrations or other fanfare like we have today.

 

[MattKing]

All the instructions said to raise the ASA setting to twice the speed.

Instructions from where - the film suppliers, or the meter manufacturers?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Instructions from where - the film suppliers, or the meter manufacturers?

Film manufactures. It was on the packages.

 

[Sirius Glass]

FWIW, I was 4 years old in 1960.

You have aged some since then. i know that I did not escape it.

 

[SchwinnParamount]

FWIW, I was 4 years old in 1960.

And I thought I was an old dude. I'm a punk next to Matt.

I didn't even exist until August of 1960 and didn't get my first year pin until August of 1961.

 

[Bill Burk]

A Weston Master II used Weston speed determination method and you have to choose the next lower setting with any ASA /ISO speed rated film to (approximately) account for the difference between Weston and ASA in the US. (Not sure the correction for a UK model but some correspondence leads me to believe the dials are not the same).

A Weston Master III miraculously has accommodated the change for both the old and new ASA speeds.

 

[Bill Burk]

I say miraculously but am teasing. Old and New ASA are the same on meter dials.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I say miraculously but am teasing. Old and New ASA are the same on meter dials.

You probably pulled enough legs that some are now walking around with one leg longer than the other.

 

[Philippe-Georges]

That reminds me of the time, many decades ago when I flew on an Air Force Reserve flight on a C-130 cargo airplane as 'cargo' while I was an officer in the Army, my friend who was part of flight crew warned me into the plane when they were getting ready to do a function check on the radar, about the possiblity of having fried 'Rocky Mountain oysters' by standing in front of the plane during test.

Speaking about "Rocky Mountain Oysters": at the time in the French Foreign Legion, it was habit for a legionair, before engaging the 'act' with a lady, to sit in a dish with 'hot' water in order to warm his goodies so not to create offspring (the hygienic effect was a rather minor detail on that very moment). In the Sahara, Latex wasn't always that secure then, and radars didn't exist...
O TEMPORA O MORES!

 

[Helge]

Ok, the Weston IV is definitely off.
What could be wished away as different standards and metering pattern, is completely offset by huge non linearity in the high range.
Tried what I should have done yesterday and used the inverticone to meter vs another incident meter. Way off when the meter approaches max deflection.
With the blocker plate up it's somewhat accurate but what good is that?
Any last things to try before I retire this, probably my last Weston to the "broken meters" box?
Pity, because the inverticone and batteryless sensitivity is so cool.

Incredible that my Ikophots are mostly bang on and they are possibly older and also Selenium. Is it the size of the cell?
Off to get a Sekonic L-398A.

 

[Bill Burk]

https://www.photrio.com/forum/attachments/meter-spectral-response-1-jpg.274622/

@Helge You mention the older meter being off compared to newer meter but closer to another similar vintage meter…

The difference could be the selenium cell spectral sensitivity differs from the newer meter’s photocell.

You might see how they compare in different lighting conditions.

 

[MattKing]

I slept on this.
You are right. The old, pre-1960 ASA was designed to give you denser negatives. The meters - pre and post 1960 - work the same.

 

[benjiboy]

I think some film manufacturers in the late 50s or early sixties made their A.S.A"s faster by removing the safety margin that films had in those days because light meters were not common and most users guessed their exposures. I remember Ilford FP 3 was 80 A.S.A and F.P.4 was 125. when it came out, and they were virtually the same film.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I have a collection of old light meters. I never paid more than a few dollars each for them. Some are accurate, some don't work and some need silver oxide batteries. I also have some with selenium cells that don't require batteries which are my favorite. I think they're cool and plan to put them in a wood display case to show my photo nerdiness.

 

[Bill Burk]

A meter with a setting for film speed using the older, pre-1960 standard will give an exposure setting recommendation one stop different than a meter with a setting for film speed using the newer, post-1960 standard.

No not at all. To prove it, pick up a Weston Master III which is the first of their meters using ASA, dial in “Sunny 16” settings. Then change the ASA to pre-1960, and look at the Sunny 16 again. Notice the arrow still points at just above the “Light” number 200.

You’ll also realize the only thing you changed was 400 to 200 in two places.

The only way I could prove it to myself was to hold the meter in my hands and try it. Word games can fool you every time.

 

[Bill Burk]

@MattKing unless you meant a meter set for 400 vs a meter set for 200… then there is a stop difference.

 

[MattKing]

No not at all. To prove it, pick up a Weston Master III which is the first of their meters using ASA, dial in “Sunny 16” settings. Then change the ASA to pre-1960, and look at the Sunny 16 again. Notice the arrow still points at just above the “Light” number 200.

You’ll also realize the only thing you changed was 400 to 200 in two places.

The only way I could prove it to myself was to hold the meter in my hands and try it. Word games can fool you every time.

@MattKing unless you meant a meter set for 400 vs a meter set for 200… then there is a stop difference.

See my post here:

I slept on this.
You are right. The old, pre-1960 ASA was designed to give you denser negatives. The meters - pre and post 1960 - work the same.

 

[tokam]

Shoot like it's 1960 again. This Sekonic L8 Director came from the estate of my late father-in-law. Just checked it outside in a scene of moderate brightness and it gave about a half stop more exposure than my Gossen Profisix. I don't use it but it's a nice keepsake. About the size of a matchbox.

 

[Bill Burk]

@Helge Your Weston Master IV might be bad (non linearity in the high range). I had one or two bad Weston meters (bad still even after trying to fix). Just buy another one. They are such good values that you can take a chance.

 

[Bill Burk]

I slept on this.
You are right. The old, pre-1960 ASA was designed to give you denser negatives. The meters - pre and post 1960 - work the same.

I knew you couldn’t believe the meters changed, though it is a mind game that’s easy to lose for a minute

 

[Helge]

@Helge Your Weston Master IV might be bad (non linearity in the high range). I had one or two bad Weston meters (bad still even after trying to fix). Just buy another one. They are such good values that you can take a chance.

For all the money and time spend on bad selenium lightmeters I could have bought at least two or three Sekonic L-398A.
Time to cut the losses, stop playing around and support a current player.

My Ikophot is wonderful in daylight but indoors and in deep shade and in nighttime cityscapes, where you need a good meter the most, It’s simply not sensitive enough.

I deeply appreciate the idea of a battery less meter, that you can just treat well and always have ready to go year after year without ever worrying about leaking, or if the batteries are quite fresh enough.