Ilford HP5+ - uneven development results

[Thomas Bertilsson]

No, the two examples in post #46 are of Ilford HP5+, since that is the film I'm having trouble with.

I posted a picture earlier in the thread (can't tell what post number it is, but it's the only picture I've posted prior to those two in #46).

Just before I processed the two rolls of Ilford HP5+, I had processed a roll of TMax 400, which is perfect. Immediately after I processed the two Ilford HP5+ rolls, I processed two rolls of TMax 400, which are perfect.
All of the films were shot with the same camera, in the same film back even, in very similar conditions, and only the HP5+ comes out uneven like this. I even used the same mix of D76, the same film developing reels, the same tank, the only thing that isn't similar is that HP5+ needs 13 minutes, and TMax 400 needs 12 minutes. Everything else is exactly the same.

Now add to that that from the brick with the two films I'm having issues with, I have seven more rolls that I shot and processed last summer, which I hadn't closely examined yet, but brought out, and lo and behold, those films are uneven too. That's what kills me. I have processed a lot of film in my days, and haven't had a single problem roll in about 5 years now, with all sorts of films and developers, including 35mm HP5+. I'm stumped.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Thomas, I was testing a new(well to me anyway) Hasselblad 553ELX I just got to make sure it was up to snuff in the TTL flash area. I took a roll of the cheapest film I had on hand, which was Arista EDU 200/Foma 200, and ran it through the camera. I had just the day before mixed up a liter of Beutler A-B developer. I used a presoak for 3 1/2 minutes and then ran it through the Beutler 1:1:10 with 30sec initial agitation and then 2 slow inversions every minute thereafter. There was a center strip where the density looked fine but the outer edges looked just like yours only not quite as wide. It was a test roll and I new the camera was fine and laid blame on the agitation scheme or lack there of. Never in a million years would I guess the presoak might have something to do with it, but I an't no rocket scientist so who knows. The only reason I used a presoak is so I could penetrate that anti-halation backing on the Foma films. The only other times I presoak are with Pyro/WD2D+ and Pyrocat-MC where it is recommended and there was no problem there.
As for cold temps? You could move! Seriously, you could load your tank and take it upstairs and let it set on the kitchen counter while you have a beer/coffee or two. Then just use the kitchen sink with a shallow bowl of tempered water. I did that for years before I got serious and built a real darkroom. I'm sure millions still do, will maybe thousands now that digital is here. If your better half say, "Outta here" then just do the same routine, bring your take upstairs, coffee/beer and in an hour or so back down to the dungeon and in to a tempers shallow bowl and develop it. I have a very nice darkroom, but I still use a Tupperware 8x12? storage container that allows just enough water to come up to the seam on my tank. Works great and I don't see changing it, but I will look into this "presoak thing" a little closer. Oh, and if you do use a Tupperware container just make sure it isn't one of your honey's favorites. Ask me what happens if you do. JohnW

I have processed over a hundred rolls of Arista Ultra.EDU 100, 200, and 400 in all sorts of developers. Never had uneven density problems with them, whether I presoaked or not. Xtol, Rodinal, Pyrocat, PMK, DD-X, Edwal 12, etc. Presoak / no presoak. Never. I've had other problems that were related to an emulsion defect, which Foma eventually owed up to, and that's when they re-designed the film, after enough of us complained.

I don't think this one has a logical explanation. I'm going to try processing without presoaking the film, and warm the tank by just warming the outside of it, such as Rick and Brian have suggested, and see how it goes. I have ten rolls of HP5 here in an unopened brick. If I get this problem again with any of it, I will be very upset.

Until then, let's have some fun, and forget about all this.

 

[wildbill]

you guys ought to read the entire thread before you post that you're confused.
Thomas, I presoak everything and never have issues because of it. There's no unique property in all of ilford's films that make them prone to uneven development. I do 3 minutes but that's with constant rotation in a jobo.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

you guys ought to read the entire thread before you post that you're confused.
Thomas, I presoak everything and never have issues because of it. There's no unique property in all of ilford's films that make them prone to uneven development. I do 3 minutes but that's with constant rotation in a jobo.

Vinny, I've never had an issue attributable to the Ilford brand, be it HP5+ or any other film by them. I wouldn't have posted this unless I thought it was bizarre.

 

[dpurdy]

I recently pulled quite a bit of my hair out trying to figure out why some 8x10 sheets of Hp5 came out with weird streaks and texture on the base regardless of what developer or wetting agent I used. I have had the habit of presoaking everything I process because several years ago it solved streaking problems for me. I generally have no problem with pre soak and it helps processing sheet film in trays. However I finally figured out that the Hp5 problem I was having went away when I stopped presoaking it.
I never had any mottling or uneven development but with pre soaking the base of the film was coming out looking terrible. No pre soak No cry. I think bob marley said that.

 

[StoneNYC]

Thomas, after reading this entire thread with a headache finally seeing the images brings something else to mind, personally I always presoak, and I've never had a problem with HP5+ or any other film when using a presoak, I think as far as your temperature issue is concerned I have a suggestion which is what I follow personally. I use a 1 L bottle to mix up my developer in, I then keep that one near bottle under hot water and raise it up to 72°, it's a glass bottle and so I allow it some time to shake up and make sure that the glass and that it liquid inside are at the same temp of 70 degrees, then pour it into the tank, it becomes 69 degrees and then by the end is 67 which in my cold house is the best I can hope for, which is to basically get day processing time to be at and/or around the proper temperature. Since you have a waterbath going on, I would simply get it up to temperature and then put in and use the water bath to stabilize temps.

As for your film issue, I don't think it has anything to do with your development at all, I think that you have a light leak issue in your film camera back and when switching back-and-forth with them you had some light leak issues and that's what caused the on evenness...

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Who knows, Stone. Fact remains that it's only the brick of ten HP5+ films that have done this. Don't you think the coincidence is a little too weird considering I've shot a hundred rolls of film since last summer?

 

[StoneNYC]

Who knows, Stone. Fact remains that it's only the brick of ten HP5+ films that have done this. Don't you think the coincidence is a little too weird considering I've shot a hundred rolls of film since last summer?

But you were doing comparisons right? Switching back and forth in the sun? Do you regularly do this? Or run through a roll and then switch backs to the next roll? And when you use the camera again you're using the same back probably because it has the HP5 tab on the back of it?

I'm asking and yes I'm assuming.

You're right it does seen odd but that kind of weird uneven-ness does seen pretty extreme, I've only use Rodinal, ilfsol 3, and DD-X with HP5+ not D-76 but I've never seen anything like that except for a roll of D-3200 and discovered it was the back that had a light leak issue which was more pronounced when I kept switching backs once on a trip.

It does seem unlikely, but it also does look like light leak/fogging more than development issue (to me). But send me a roll and I'll develop it and see if I get the same thing, could also be a bad batch, it DOES happen. As you said the 35mm never did this, isn't base the same in both? Which would indicate it should show up in the 35mm if it's simply a pre-soak issue?

Also, you can send a frame to ilford, they have a department to analyze your film and tell you what's wrong.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Stone, think about it.

I've shot more than 100 rolls since last summer when I bought the HP5.
Out of a hundred rolls plus, the only rolls to exhibit problems are the ten HP5.
Four different film backs. How can that possibly happen where ever single other film is fine?
Not realistic. It's definitely to do with the film or how I treat it.

Now, please leave it alone, because I'd like to move on.

 

[JW PHOTO]

Thomas,
I went back over every post here and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything and from what I can gather it that this is the very first time you have used the HP5+ and D-76 combination in 120, am I right? I sometime misread thing and just wanted to make sure.
I would be the first to say that it is very possible it could be a problem with the film itself, but then it could be something else, some other variable causing it. If you had used this combo all the time and then now it's , "bingo" I'd surely say it was film related. Back to what I said about the Foma/Arista RDU 200 and Beutler. It was my first try so God only knows where I screwed up. EDU 200 works fine in my other "presoak" developers, but not Beutler so I was lucky knowing my batch of film was basically good in everything else. Makes it simple to narrow it down or just not use that combination, which I probably won't. For you it's a different story, in that all other films work fine in that developer and HP5+ doesn't. Sure points in the direction of the film or the film just doesn't like that developer and style of development. For my Foma/Arista 200 - Beutler issue I think more frequent agitation might have helped and I'm also a gentle guy and that probably didn't help either. Sometimes things just aren't compatible and you may never know why, but it sure makes you upset when you waste beautiful shots like Lake Superior or have to brave the weather for naught. Oh, if you have a bunch of undeveloped rolls of HP5+ and it were me? I'd look into another developer. And if they are scenes like the lake shore I think I'd go pyro/pyrocat, but that's just me I guess. Good luck! JohnW

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

John, I don't know. I'm still a bit perplexed by it all. Trying to just remain calm and analyze everything.

It's true that I did develop some rolls from the same brick last summer in replenished Xtol, and some in Edwal 12. Now that I go back and look at them under the scanner glass it's clear that they exhibit the same type of problem as what I see here today.
I'm not convinced it's developer related.

I'm afraid that the only common denominators I find are:
1. The film itself.
2. How I handle it when I shoot and process.

Between the two of those, who knows what's going on.

I shot 25 rolls of film while away, so three rolls lost due to some weird occurrence isn't going to bother me.

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

How about for the next roll, clip off about 4 or 5 inches and develop it in a tray. If you get the same uneven bits, then it's the film. I doubt it's developer related, temperature related or from pre soaking. I've used HP5 for 20 years in all formats up to 8x10 and I've never seen this. I will also add that I do not pre soak this film. I get streaks if I do. Good luck.

 

[erikg]

Just going by what I see in the scans, it looks like an agitation issue.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

How about for the next roll, clip off about 4 or 5 inches and develop it in a tray. If you get the same uneven bits, then it's the film. I doubt it's developer related, temperature related or from pre soaking. I've used HP5 for 20 years in all formats up to 8x10 and I've never seen this. I will also add that I do not pre soak this film. I get streaks if I do. Good luck.

Thanks again for chiming in.

My strategy is to simply develop another roll but omit the presoaking. If that solves nothing, then I might try what you suggest.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Just going by what I see in the scans, it looks like an agitation issue.

I know! That's one of those things that really bother me. Had it been an agitation issue, all the other films I've processed should have suffered the same problem!

 

[removed account4]

... dreaded doppleganger

 

[removed account4]

i think you should change films, change developers, change cameras, and change to a jobo or combi plan processor.
it might be your lens, so make sure you change lenses too.

oh, did you have anything to eat or drink before you processed this film >
do you use deep tanks ? maybe it was methane burst instead of nitrogen burst ...

or maybe you need to eat or drink something

good luck with all this

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think I may have farted in the darkroom before I processed the film. Does that count, John?

 

[removed account4]

methane burst is not good, gives uneven development

 

[eddie]

but it raises the room's ambient temperature.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

but it raises the room's ambient temperature.

Pros and Cons. Pros and Cons.

What a mess...

All right, folks, I gotta go finish some laundry and call it a night.

Thanks for chiming in. I'm sure that we got this one by the cojones by just eliminating the prewash or extending it.

 

[MattKing]

Thomas:
If you are planning on doing a test with no pre-soak, I'd suggest also doing another test with more of a pre-soak - say 3 minutes with lots of agitation.
It seems to me that the problem might be a function of the combination of cold film and relatively short pre-washing.

 

[pentaxuser]

Just in a lighter note Thomas, I know you guys in Minnesota are pretty tough and are used to the cold but working at 45F for more than a short period must be difficult

I have difficulty even to think straight at 45F

pentaxuser

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Just in a lighter note Thomas, I know you guys in Minnesota are pretty tough and are used to the cold but working at 45F for more than a short period must be difficult

I have difficulty even to think straight at 45F

pentaxuser

You get used to it. I just bought an electric tray heater that keeps my print chemicals at 70 degrees F (or higher), and the water bath trick works wonders for processing film.
Then all I need is a hat, nice wool slippers, and a warm wool sweater.
By no means is my darkroom typical, quite the contrary. But we do what we must do to continue on with what we love...

 

[erikg]

I know! That's one of those things that really bother me. Had it been an agitation issue, all the other films I've processed should have suffered the same problem!

Perhaps. But it may be the TMY is a red herring. Different films and all. The most common cause of uneven development is agitation. I think that's where you should look. It could be that the presoak+ your initial agitation is causing trouble. Good luck! These problems can be vexing.