ID-11 alternative?

[brian steinberger]

Ilford is now telling me mid June for stock. Today B&H listed ID-11 (as we know it anyway) as discontinued. So not sure if Ilford is repackaging all their powder chemistry. Microphen is listed discontinued as well. So hopefully it shows up in June or I may have to start mixing my own.

 

[Pixophrenic]

Ilford is now telling me mid June for stock. Today B&H listed ID-11 (as we know it anyway) as discontinued. So not sure if Ilford is repackaging all their powder chemistry. Microphen is listed discontinued as well. So hopefully it shows up in June or I may have to start mixing my own.

I am sorry, your post sounds misleading to me. Indeed, B&H lists both developers as discontinued, but beside there are "new products" with the same name and appearance. So, we may be looking at a "child proof" repackaging or perhaps putting additional warning signs on the outside. After all., some people have allergy to metol and borate is not a desirable chemical, though not outright a forbidden one.

 

[Craig]

Ilford is now telling me mid June for stock. Today B&H listed ID-11 (as we know it anyway) as discontinued. So not sure if Ilford is repackaging all their powder chemistry. Microphen is listed discontinued as well. So hopefully it shows up in June or I may have to start mixing my own.

I wouldn't rely on a retailer to determine if a manufacturer has discontinued a product.
ID-11 for example isn't listed as discontinued at the distributor: https://www.ilfordphoto.ca/product/id11-1-packet-makes-1-liter/

 

[Milpool]

Perhaps a minor point but in re-introducing Kodak-branded chemicals Photo Systems seems to have included 1l packets of D-76, so that’s a potential option in the meantime.

 

[brian steinberger]

I am sorry, your post sounds misleading to me. Indeed, B&H lists both developers as discontinued, but beside there are "new products" with the same name and appearance. So, we may be looking at a "child proof" repackaging or perhaps putting additional warning signs on the outside. After all., some people have allergy to metol and borate is not a desirable chemical, though not outright a forbidden one.

I see this now on B&H. Wasn’t there yesterday. This is a good sign.

 

[Agulliver]

For those in the UK, Nik & Trick have their own "brand" of D76 available once again, manufactured for them by Bellinni Foto in Italy. I've been using it since early February when my Microphen ran out. It's not 100% ideal for my preferences but it does the job as well as Kodak D76 or Ilford ID-11. I am generally pushing HP5+ two stops so Microphen would be better.

I am hopeful that the Ilford chemicals well become available from June, as stated above. I have sufficient N&T D76 to last into the summer now, having bought some more this week.

 

[Agulliver]

Over on Ilford Photo's facebook page they've done a post "Which team are you - ID11 or DD-X?" and I answered "ID11 when it's available". They responded "very soon"

So let us hope that Ilford have sorted out a new supply of chemicals and that they'll hit the retailers in time for summer. I'm still using the Nik & Trick D76 which is perfectly decent, but I'd like to use Ilford ID-11 or hopefully Microphen.

 

[Daniela]

"Which team are you - ID11 or DD-X?" and I answered "ID11 when it's available". They responded "very soon"

Awesome! Thanks for sharing and fingers crossed!

 

[Pioneer]

D-23 and Pa-Rodinal are developers I can mix for myself that pretty much cover all my needs for now. With those I am insulated from some of these rolling outages we seem to be experiencing.

I have also been experimenting a bit lately with Caffenol and finding it has excellent potential with Fomapan 400 and TMAX 100. It may become my go to developer once I get things dialed in where I like it.

I'll be testing it later in the week with a roll of Adox CMS 20. I still have a bit of that in the freezer though it would seem that film is no longer being made.

Now if I could just find a home brewed C-41 developer that was easy to mix up I would be happy.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Mid-July and no ID-11 yet. Based on Mirko's comments about updated regulations, I'll be curious to see whether the new version still comes in two bags or has now been combined into one.

 

[brian steinberger]

I was in touch with Ilford last week. They said for the US to see product within 10 days. That was this past Tuesday. We’ll see if that holds true. They’ve told me a few other times and that didn’t come true. I just mixed up a batch of formulary TD-16 to try. Supposed to be a more stable D-76.

In the past few months I’ve mixed my own D-76, worked great until PH rose after a few weeks then negs were super dense. Threw that out and bought a new pack of D-76 from B&H. Mixed it up with distilled water and got thin negatives, mainly less shadow detail. Tried increasing my times just a bit, didn’t do much. Current D-76 seems lifeless compared to the results I got with ID-11 before it went away.

So needless to say I’m excited about its return and hope it performs the same way. In the meantime I’ll try out this TD-16 and report back how it compares to ID-11 and D-76.

 

[Milpool]

I just had a look at the TD-16 sheet. What nonsense.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

I was in touch with Ilford last week. They said for the US to see product within 10 days. That was this past Tuesday. We’ll see if that holds true.

I hope ID11 is back soon. It's return is already way overdue.

Ilford ID-11 developer

Avebury Stone Circle, Wiltshire taken on llford FP4 film developed in ID-11 at 1+3. The fine grain of this combination has captured the smooth texture of the weathered stone. By chance I met the la…

darkroomuser.wordpress.com

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I just checked the 4 or 5 usual stores where I buy supplies and ID-11 is out of stock everywhere. Finally found a shop in Lille, put in an order only to get a phone call later telling me that it's out of stock and they don't expect new supplies for another month. No clue as to why this is happening...So, what other developers compare? I really like the fine grain and contrast I get with it.
Thanks!

Kodak D76 is a one-to-one replacement of


ilford ID11 but you can also mix it easily from bulk.(Suvetlar in Hamburg, Germany) is a good supplier of bulk photographic chemicals

 

[Daniela]

Just bought another package to make 5L of D76....I don't think I'll be going back...

 

[TomR55]

I was in touch with Ilford last week. They said for the US to see product within 10 days. That was this past Tuesday. We’ll see if that holds true. They’ve told me a few other times and that didn’t come true. I just mixed up a batch of formulary TD-16 to try. Supposed to be a more stable D-76.

In the past few months I’ve mixed my own D-76, worked great until PH rose after a few weeks then negs were super dense. Threw that out and bought a new pack of D-76 from B&H. Mixed it up with distilled water and got thin negatives, mainly less shadow detail. Tried increasing my times just a bit, didn’t do much. Current D-76 seems lifeless compared to the results I got with ID-11 before it went away.

So needless to say I’m excited about its return and hope it performs the same way. In the meantime I’ll try out this TD-16 and report back how it compares to ID-11 and D-76.

Mixed my own D76 for many years, but always used the batch within a week. When shooting fewer rolls (per day/week), I used to mix D76H, which is more stable (does not have the hydroquinone hence the pH creep) and always gave me results that were indistinguishable from the regular D-76. The formulas for D76H and other variants are available on the Massive Development Chart web site and other sources. You might give it a try if you are still unable to obtain ID11.

 

[brian steinberger]

Mixed my own D76 for many years, but always used the batch within a week. When shooting fewer rolls (per day/week), I used to mix D76H, which is more stable (does not have the hydroquinone hence the pH creep) and always gave me results that were indistinguishable from the regular D-76. The formulas for D76H and other variants are available on the Massive Development Chart web site and other sources. You might give it a try if you are still unable to obtain ID11.

This was my experience too. Mixed up fresh works great for a week or so then goes super active.

I’ve seen that formula of D-76H, also read about a D-76d which adds boric acid to the original formula and supposed to do the same thing, stop the PH creep. I may move forward with these formulas if ID-11 stays unavailable or comes back not the same as before.

 

[Lachlan Young]

I just had a look at the TD-16 sheet. What nonsense.

The level of ignorance about D-76 is quite staggering - especially the populist nonsense about supposed instability etc from people who aren't trying to run it in a replenished system with process controls - people seem to be either using it too fresh, or mixing up far too much for the amount of film they're running within a sensible period - or storing it inappropriately.

I also suspect the Haist variant was arrived at via a leading question from whoever the interlocutor was, rather than the recipient caring to understand the mechanisms that underpin the developing component relationships in D-76.

also read about a D-76d which adds boric acid to the original formula

Lots of buffer variants exist from all the major manufacturers. Then Ilford got PQ to work, which essentially solved the problems with using MQ in replenished systems & that became the main research focus for buffering etc. D-76 is well behaved if properly mixed, allowed to reach equilibrium, and used up in a timely fashion. It was a preferred choice for optimal quality for a very long time for very good reasons (under double blind tests, viewers consistently preferred the grain/ sharpness balance - and it gave excellent speed relative to granularity) - an enormous amount of research effort was expended on trying to better it (and fix its more troublesome quirks) for over 50 years.

 

[Keith Tapscott.]

This was my experience too. Mixed up fresh works great for a week or so then goes super active.

I’ve seen that formula of D-76H, also read about a D-76d which adds boric acid to the original formula and supposed to do the same thing, stop the PH creep. I may move forward with these formulas if ID-11 stays unavailable or comes back not the same as before.

If mixing from raw chemicals, make up smaller stock solutions as required.
For example, 500ml at a time and decant into two 250ml bottles.
Keeping the bottles filled to the brim helps to prevent the increase in activity.
Aeration is the main problem with the classic formula.

 

[Milpool]

Another strange thing is some people seem to believe ID-11 wouldn’t have all the same “instability” issues as D-76.

The level of ignorance about D-76 is quite staggering - especially the populist nonsense about supposed instability etc from people who aren't trying to run it in a replenished system with process controls - people seem to be either using it too fresh, or mixing up far too much for the amount of film they're running within a sensible period - or storing it inappropriately.

I also suspect the Haist variant was arrived at via a leading question from whoever the interlocutor was, rather than the recipient caring to understand the mechanisms that underpin the developing component relationships in D-76.



Lots of buffer variants exist from all the major manufacturers. Then Ilford got PQ to work, which essentially solved the problems with using MQ in replenished systems & that became the main research focus for buffering etc. D-76 is well behaved if properly mixed, allowed to reach equilibrium, and used up in a timely fashion. It was a preferred choice for optimal quality for a very long time for very good reasons (under double blind tests, viewers consistently preferred the grain/ sharpness balance - and it gave excellent speed relative to granularity) - an enormous amount of research effort was expended on trying to better it (and fix its more troublesome quirks) for over 50 years.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Nah, I don't buy sliced bread and prefer to keep fresh baguettes for my dinner

Thanks for the suggestions.
I'll look into those alternatives (and try to avoid paying for shipping or mixing from scratch - too complicated, also too lazy!)

can't help with lazy but complicated it ain't.

 

[Ian Grant]

Mid-July and no ID-11 yet. Based on Mirko's comments about updated regulations, I'll be curious to see whether the new version still comes in two bags or has now been combined into one.

It is in sock at Ilford/Harman, so it is probably a case of when the next shipment of Ilford materials arrives in North America.

This was my experience too. Mixed up fresh works great for a week or so then goes super active.

I’ve seen that formula of D-76H, also read about a D-76d which adds boric acid to the original formula and supposed to do the same thing, stop the PH creep. I may move forward with these formulas if ID-11 stays unavailable or comes back not the same as before.

Kodak D-76 is no longer the original published formula, it was changed with increased Borax and the addition of Boric acid. The labelling on Kodak Australia Ltd D=76 packaging listed the percentage contents, these indicate the probable version in production.

Chemical	D-76	D-76 (Australia Ltd)	D-76d
Metol	2g	2g	2g
Sodium Sulphite (anhyd)	100g	100g	100g
Hydroquinone	5g	5g	5g
Borax	2g	4g	8g
Boric Acid	0	2g	8g
Water to	1 litre	1 litre	1 litre

The 2015 Kodak Alaris MSDS shows the formula changed again, with no Borax or Boric Acid. An Ilford Patent shows ID-11 as a reference developer but with the Borax increased from 2g to 3g

When D-76 & ID-11, and numerous identical versions from other manufacturers, were introduced, they were designed for replenished use. As Lachlan mentions in post #93 the developer needs time after mixing, before use, and it also needs ripening, often with the addition of some older developer, or just through use, this allows Bromide to build up slightly. Once ripened D-76/ID-11 give their best results, and can be replenished for quite a significant throughput, but ultimately it collapses, primarily due to Bromide building up to levels that inhibit the Metol.

As Lachlan mentioned a PQ version of ID-11/D76 is far more stable and in fact Ilford introduced Autophe a PQ variant as a high volume fine grain film developer for photofinishing labs. This could use top up replenishment, unlike ID-11/D-76 which used bleed replenishment to help keep the Bromide level lower.

However small scale users began using D-76/ID-11 dilute, in the 1970s, so both companies published times for 1+1 and 1+3. It's likely the buffering was change for greater stability, particularly at1+3.

Ian

 

[pbromaghin]

can't help with lazy but complicated it ain't.

Ralph, thanks for posting this. Great paper.

When I homebrew developer, I just do a quart at a time, perfect for 4 rolls.

 

[pbromaghin]

The level of ignorance about D-76 is quite staggering - especially the populist nonsense about supposed instability etc from people who aren't trying to run it in a replenished system with process controls - people seem to be either using it too fresh, or mixing up far too much for the amount of film they're running within a sensible period - or storing it inappropriately.

Just how fresh is too fresh? How long does it take to ripen?

 

[Daniela]

can't help with lazy but complicated it ain't.

That's an awesome resource, thank you! I'll be able to get to it when you provide the recipe to combat laziness No, seriously, it does make it seem doable to my non-chemist brain.