Help with Kodak RA4 Chemistry

[arespencer]

I don’t know what part of SoCal you’re in, but you may need/want a way to temper the temperature in your darkroom. I’m near Pasadena, I need A/C in summer and heat in the winter to work comfortably.

Ah yeah, I’m near the coast in OC so much cooler than you. Also in my garage so not sure how effective a standard portable AC unit will be in there. It is pretty cold in there right now but I feel like in the day I can be fine but if I’m printing at night I may need to run a little space heater or layer up

 

[Aidan Sciortino]

In terms of washing, I use a variant of the “Ilford Wash” they recommend for film, and wash the print in the drum. For a 16x20 print I wash with at least 2L of water total, putting in the following quantities in order;

- 250ml for 30s
- 250ml for 60s
- 500ml for 120s (2m)
- 500ml for 240s (4m)
- 500ml for 240s (4m)

The total volume is based on the “worst case” wash rate from Kodak’s Z-130 of 1000ml/ft^2. I try to use water within 5 degrees C of my development temperature.

This is probably excessive, but as I’m printing on thick base papers (Endura, DPII, Maxima) and not using any sort of wash aid, I prefer to err on the safe side. I’m used to washing fiber paper anyway, and this is nothing compared to that.

 

[arespencer]

In terms of washing, I use a variant of the “Ilford Wash” they recommend for film, and wash the print in the drum. For a 16x20 print I wash with at least 2L of water total, putting in the following quantities in order;

- 250ml for 30s
- 250ml for 60s
- 500ml for 120s (2m)
- 500ml for 240s (4m)
- 500ml for 240s (4m)

The total volume is based on the “worst case” wash rate from Kodak’s Z-130 of 1000ml/ft^2. I try to use water within 5 degrees C of my development temperature.

This is probably excessive, but as I’m printing on thick base papers (Endura, DPII, Maxima) and not using any sort of wash aid, I prefer to err on the safe side. I’m used to washing fiber paper anyway, and this is nothing compared to that.

11 minutes of washing is gonna destroy me. Not including time between baths. Is that not massively overkill? I’m also printing DPII, but 11 minutes definitely won’t be sustainable.

Does anyone have recommendations on print washers for single prints? How would you keep tray washers at temp if you don’t have tempered water from your water supply? Use another sous vide?

 

[mshchem]

11 minutes of washing is gonna destroy me. Not including time between baths. Is that not massively overkill? I’m also printing DPII, but 11 minutes definitely won’t be sustainable.

Does anyone have recommendations on print washers for single prints? How would you keep tray washers at temp if you don’t have tempered water from your water supply? Use another sous vide?

There's absolutely no reason to overdue the wash. You should even reuse the water.

First take the print out of the drum, place print in a tray with a bit of water. Get 3 small buckets, say 3 gallons. Label "first" "second" "last".

1. So out comes your print covered with blix into the tray with water it goes, give it 10-15 seconds then dump it down the drain.
2. Take bucket "first" pour the water into your tray and agitate constantly for 30 seconds, pour this water back into bucket "first".
3. Do the same thing with "middle" save the water back in the middle bucket
4. Repeat with "last".
Anything over 90 seconds of wash is a waste of time and resources.

After 5 or 6 prints pour first into your empty tray, the middle into first, and last into middle. Prepare a fresh Last
If you're worried about fungus attacking the gelatin in your finished prints due to improper storing of prints add a 4th bucket of final rinse (I don't fool with this on prints)

I like to use warm water, 25-35 C. But I wouldn't over think it.

 

[mshchem]

Don't buy a print washer those are for fiber base paper.

You can wash 2 or 3 prints at a time in the same tray. Just be thoughtful not to leave the prints in the first holding bath too long (apx. 30-45 minutes)

 

[mshchem]

There's absolutely no reason to overdue the wash. You should even reuse the water.

First take the print out of the drum, place print in a tray with a bit of water. Get 3 small buckets, say 3 gallons. Label "first" "second" "last".

1. So out comes your print covered with blix into the tray with water it goes, give it 10-15 seconds then dump it down the drain.
2. Take bucket "first" pour the water into your tray and agitate constantly for 30 seconds, pour this water back into bucket "first".
3. Do the same thing with "middle" save the water back in the middle bucket
4. Repeat with "last".
Anything over 90 seconds of wash is a waste of time and resources.

After 5 or 6 prints pour first into your empty tray, the middle into first, and last into middle. Prepare a fresh Last
If you're worried about fungus attacking the gelatin in your finished prints due to improper storing of prints add a 4th bucket of final rinse (I don't fool with this on prints)

I like to use warm water, 25-35 C. But I wouldn't over think it.

This is how minilabs work. Counter flow washing. Each of the 3 tanks takes 30 seconds for the print to pass. The water is usually just warm water, some folks add a tiny tablet of biocide to the tanks to keep mold from growing in the tanks. As long as you don't store the water this isn't an issue.

 

[arespencer]

This is how minilabs work. Counter flow washing. Each of the 3 tanks takes 30 seconds for the print to pass. The water is usually just warm water, some folks add a tiny tablet of biocide to the tanks to keep mold from growing in the tanks. As long as you don't store the water this isn't an issue.

Ok thanks for the tips. For print washer I was more thinking a Kodak siphon or something like that but maybe I don’t need it.

I’ll probably follow the method you laid out but do a 30° wash in the drum for the first wash as a way to clear out most of the blix. Then do the 3 tray washes at room temp.

I was also thinking if those 5 gallon jugs I ordered end up being over kill for chemical storage I can store water in there for washing and just dispense from that into a tray and one shot the wash or something like that

 

[mshchem]

Ok thanks for the tips. For print washer I was more thinking a Kodak siphon or something like that but maybe I don’t need it.

I’ll probably follow the method you laid out but do a 30° wash in the drum for the first wash as a way to clear out most of the blix. Then do the 3 tray washes at room temp.

I was also thinking if those 5 gallon jugs I ordered end up being over kill for chemical storage I can store water in there for washing and just dispense from that into a tray and one shot the wash or something like that

That sounds like a great plan.

The Kodak tray syphon works great. It would be nice if you could be washing your drum while the print washed.

 

[mshchem]

You can set up your tray siphon so that the outflow can be used as your first post tube wash. Let the siphon tray be final.

 

[arespencer]

That sounds like a great plan.

The Kodak tray syphon works great. It would be nice if you could be washing your drum while the print washed.

This is what I was thinking, plus running it through my print dryer. I also have 4 Jobo drums so I’ll be able to go for a decent stretch. I plan on collecting as many as I can too but from my testing I feel like I can actually almost wash and dry a drum during the wash and dry time.

 

[Aidan Sciortino]

This is what I was thinking, plus running it through my print dryer. I also have 4 Jobo drums so I’ll be able to go for a decent stretch. I plan on collecting as many as I can too but from my testing I feel like I can actually almost wash and dry a drum during the wash and dry time.

I would definitely recommend doing a simple rinse or short wash in the drum, as it has the nice side effect of washing the drum out too.

You’re right that my 11 minutes are overkill, I’ll likely explore some of the options from this thread as well.

 

[mshchem]

Expert drums work great with paper, 5 8x10s at a time.

 

[arespencer]

Expert drums work great with paper, 5 8x10s at a time.

When I print I’m not really making multiple copies, I’m printing 1 image at a time from a recent shoot and then scanning the print for a final digital file (to send to clients) or publish into a zine/book or online.

I’ve been buying up Jobo 2840 drums when they pop up. I think those can handle up to 12x16. I also have a bottom half from a 2850 which is basically a 2830 which says it goes up to 9 1/2 x 12. I was able to fit a 10x12 sheet in there without any overlap and the lid closed fine without damaging the paper. I’m curious if anyone has happened to try 10x12 in that jobo without any development issues. If so I’ll probably try to pick up more of those when they pop up too.


Also I print mostly on 10x12 (DPII) and 11x14. If I could get DPII in 11x14 I would. I’d be curious to compare detail in the final hi res scan from a 8x10 and 11x14 print (from 67 and 645 negatives)

 

[mshchem]

When I print I’m not really making multiple copies, I’m printing 1 image at a time from a recent shoot and then scanning the print for a final digital file (to send to clients) or publish into a zine/book or online.

I’ve been buying up Jobo 2840 drums when they pop up. I think those can handle up to 12x16. I also have a bottom half from a 2850 which is basically a 2830 which says it goes up to 9 1/2 x 12. I was able to fit a 10x12 sheet in there without any overlap and the lid closed fine without damaging the paper. I’m curious if anyone has happened to try 10x12 in that jobo without any development issues. If so I’ll probably try to pick up more of those when they pop up too.


Also I print mostly on 10x12 (DPII) and 11x14. If I could get DPII in 11x14 I would. I’d be curious to compare detail in the final hi res scan from a 8x10 and 11x14 print (from 67 and 645 negatives)

Are you printing multiple images on a single sheet or just making big prints?

 

[arespencer]

Are you printing multiple images on a single sheet or just making big prints?

Just single images. Is 11x14 considered a big print? I scan my prints on an epson xl1200 and do additional color work, retouching, and sometimes even composites. So that’s really the main end goal for my home darkroom/needs.

 

[koraks]

How would you keep tray washers at temp if you don’t have tempered water from your water supply?

So wash at a lower temperature. Time and temperature are to an extent exchangeable.

Like I must have said before - I just dump my prints into a holding try and then wash them like BW prints, in a batch-wise fashion, with a couple of changes of water.

 

[mshchem]

So wash at a lower temperature. Time and temperature are to an extent exchangeable.

Like I must have said before - I just dump my prints into a holding try and then wash them like BW prints, in a batch-wise fashion, with a couple of changes of water.

+1 Especially when using my little Durst RCP-20

 

[arespencer]

Thanks everyone for all your help. I just completed my first trial run print. On the 3rd and last print I timed it to be 8 minutes from dry to dry. I did a 30 sec pre wash, 45 dev, 45 blix and 3 in drum washes. Temps at 95 degrees Fahrenheit.

I noticed that drying to drum is pretty quick, it’s the lid system that takes some time. So I think I have enough drums for now and it I can stock up on lids that’d keep me pumping through prints without needing to stop. I can pretty much wash and towel dry a drum in the time it takes to run through the print dryer. If I can automate the washes I’d really have a lot of time.

Couple things I need to improve is building a system for my main dev and blix bottles to be on a hand pump dispenser. That way I can pump out the needed amounts into my beakers instead of unlatching the accordion drum and pouring from that bottle. I easy hand pump to dispense warm chemicals would be awesome and shave off a good amount of time.

 

[mshchem]

Looking good!

 

[brbo]

I noticed that drying to drum is pretty quick, it’s the lid system that takes some time. So I think I have enough drums for now and it I can stock up on lids that’d keep me pumping through prints without needing to stop. I can pretty much wash and towel dry a drum in the time it takes to run through the print dryer. If I can automate the washes I’d really have a lot of time.

I use 2 drums. Wash the "used" drum while presoaking the paper in the next drum, wash the lid of used drum during development, towel dry the drum during development and dry the lid during washing. That way you don't get a second of idle time during printing/developing. Which is good and bad at the same time since I'm totally spent after an afternoon of printing...

 

[arespencer]

I use 2 drums. Wash the "used" drum while presoaking the paper in the next drum, wash the lid of used drum during development, towel dry the drum during development and dry the lid during washing. That way you don't get a second of idle time during printing/developing. Which is good and bad at the same time since I'm totally spent after an afternoon of printing...

Yeah I’m thinking I won’t need to own as many drums as I was thinking I’d want to. I think an army of kids would go a long way and you only need to wash a dry the drum in between prints. Would make things a lot faster.

Also if anyone is wondering I did these 10x12 DPII prints inside of a 2830 drum which they say is good for up to 9.5x12


I had a question about replinsher solution vs tank solution (with starter). Is there any difference in life span between the 2? Is there a reason I should store my replenished in a main jug and then dispense and make tank solution for my printing session? Could I just mix up a big batch of tank solution and store that until I use it up?

I also just ordered 2 of these bottles with pump. My idea is for this to sit in my water bath with chemicals and I can pump dispense the ml amount into my beaker for the next print. Any reason why these wouldn’t work out for that or anything to look out for?

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[koraks]

Could I just mix up a big batch of tank solution and store that until I use it up?

That should work OK. In theory the replenisher, which is more concentrated, would last a little longer, but I doubt the difference in practice is significant.

 

[halfaman]

Also if anyone is wondering I did these 10x12 DPII prints inside of a 2830 drum which they say is good for up to 9.5x12

I am (25 cm or 9.85"). The paper goes a tiny little bit above the drum body, but it is possible to close it with the lid without causing any damage.

 

[arespencer]

I am (25 cm or 9.85"). The paper goes a tiny little bit above the drum body, but it is possible to close it with the lid without causing any damage.

Yeah it was never an issue and had now issues developing edge to edge. Some prints did get a tiny bit smashed but it was very minimal and could be smoothed out

 

[arespencer]

I’m nearing the finish line on this darkroom. Got a harbor freight work bench and a rolling cart which is holding my water bath and waste tank and fresh water tank below. I’m currently operating with no running water so I basically fill up the jug with the hottest tap water and then dispense from there during printing for pre wet and washes inside the drum. I also got these smaller jugs with pump dispensers that will hold my chemicals and then I can just pump to re fill the beakers for the next print, instead of opening and pouring out the chemicals. Saves a good amount of time!

Next phase is to source/build a disposal sink which I’ll either attach to the desk or to the water bath cart and run a hose to the waste tank. I’m gonna have a separate waste tank for chemicals and the 1st wash, and a 2nd for water only from pre wet and for the 2nd and 3rd wash. This way the wash disposal tank I can pour down the drain and the chemical waste tank I can save until I drop off at a disposal site.

My drop off site needs me to leave the container the waste is in. Is there places that I can just pour it out when I’m there and save the container? Or what can I store chemical waste in that is cheap since it’s a one time use?