Help with Kodak RA4 Chemistry

[arespencer]

This is the work in progress darkroom. The wet/processing station is temporary right now. I would like to see if I could potentially fit that in that little nook area where the husky cabinet and c stands are currently stored. It might be possible but it’ll be tight. I need to fit a laundry sink and then table space for the water bath, the drum roller and a print washing tray. The Arkay print dryer I plan on building or buying a little rolling cart that can hold the dryer which I can then store somewhere and wheel it out for printing sessions. This may not be the right section of the forums but I did want to pick people brains on this layout and any ideas they had for making the space work when it comes time to finish phase 2 of my darkroom.

 

[DREW WILEY]

arespencer - the Silver Pixel RA4-RT kit includes instructions for drum use. You don't need any other developer Starter. Of course, you need the two-part Blix kit too. But I never mix up full volumes, but proportionately mix only enough of each for a single day's session at most. That custom of mine helps to keep the working chem fresh and reliable, and alleviates the need for any kind of big container.

The weak link in the longevity of the unmixed concentrates is the smaller Part B
Developer component. That's the one I might try adding Bloxygen or some other inert gas like a wine preservative to, as the internal volume gets lower. Since I only print color during the dryer warm season, I always seem to have some left over chemistry which isn't good any longer the next year; and it's generally the Part B Dev component which is the primary culprit.

Why just seasonal color printing? I'm somewhat allergic to RA4 chem, so do the actual processing outdoors on a portable cart with my big roller device atop it. I do have a backup 30X40 inch processor in the sink room itself, but more as an emergency spare, or just in case I do need to custom print something in Winter. It has its own dedicated fume hood. Otherwise, I only do conventional black and white printing in the colder months.

My drums are quite efficient, and a single fluid oz if sufficient for an 8X10 print or test strip in an 8x10 drum. A half liter is sufficient for the big 30X40 inch drum. Jobo drums top out at 20X24 inch capacity. My own 20X24 drum is different, but needs 8 oz of chem. Stop bath and rinse volumes can be done in greater fluid volumes, since plain water is inexpensive.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Different related topic, arespencer - The labeling and marketing of Fuji products can be confusing since it apparently differs between North America and the EU. Maxima will be the same. But what is called DPii by Koraks and others in the EU is apparently Super C ii here in the US. The cheaper and thinner cut sheet product labeled as CA ii here is cut down from what is here simply sold as CA in its roll sizes.

Then there are a number of other Crystal Archive products too, right up to the amazing Fujiflex Supergloss on polyester base, which is only sold in big heavy expensive rolls.
The last two of those I rolls got were label imprinted in English from Japan as CAii, even though this product has no relation to their RC paper lineup imprinted in that "ii" manner. Apparently, that was just their way of warehouse identifying it as second-generation Fujiflex. But that transition occurred about 15 years ago anyway, so it's highly doubtful any of the former version of Flex is still around.

 

[MattKing]

Filled 5 gallon containers weigh about 50 lbs/~23 kg, and make a huge mess if spilled.
Filled 2 gallon containers are only 40% of that, and make a correspondingly smaller mess if spilled.
I would only use the 5 gallon ones if my throughput was very, very high.

 

[arespencer]

Filled 5 gallon containers weigh about 50 lbs/~23 kg, and make a huge mess if spilled.
Filled 2 gallon containers are only 40% of that, and make a correspondingly smaller mess if spilled.
I would only use the 5 gallon ones if my throughput was very, very high.

With the 5 gallon jug it would never be completely filled since I only mix up 10L of replenisher and blix at a time. I also have absolutely zero intention of spilling it haha.

From my estimations a printing day would use up 1-2L based on the size of the test drum and 11x14 drums and the amount of test strips and full size prints I print in a session. At the moment I have 2 projects that have a back log of negatives that haven’t been printed so those alone could keep me very busy in the darkroom. I’d say 2L a week if I’m not busy with work jobs. Once those wrap up I’ll just be printing current shoot projects which will slow down to a shoot about once a month roughly and might be between 2-3/4L of tank solutions a month.

 

[MattKing]

With the 5 gallon jug it would never be completely filled since I only mix up 10L of replenisher and blix at a time. I also have absolutely zero intention of spilling it haha.

From my estimations a printing day would use up 1-2L based on the size of the test drum and 11x14 drums and the amount of test strips and full size prints I print in a session. At the moment I have 2 projects that have a back log of negatives that haven’t been printed so those alone could keep me very busy in the darkroom. I’d say 2L a week if I’m not busy with work jobs. Once those wrap up I’ll just be printing current shoot projects which will slow down to a shoot about once a month roughly and might be between 2-3/4L of tank solutions a month.

With that throughput, I would definitely use the smaller 2L tanks.

 

[arespencer]

With that throughput, I would definitely use the smaller 2L tanks.

2L tanks as in the collapsible accordion tanks or soda bottles?

I was thinking what would be nice with the 5 gallon tanks is that I can mix the 10L batches inside of them also. What else would be a good option for mixing the 10L of solution in? Because I currently don’t have something large enough to mix the bulk chemicals in.

 

[MattKing]

2L tanks as in the collapsible accordion tanks or soda bottles?

Don't ever use the collapsible accordion tanks.
They are prone to porous admission of oxygen at the folds, and they are extremely difficult to clean thoroughly.
Soda bottles work well - particularly the heavier walled ones.
I like the 2 litre "Growler" glass bottles with the extra finger grip and beer suitable caps, but you may prefer to avoid glass.
These ones:

I was thinking what would be nice with the 5 gallon tanks is that I can mix the 10L batches inside of them also. What else would be a good option for mixing the 10L of solution in? Because I currently don’t have something large enough to mix the bulk chemicals in.

For mixing, a pail.
I can walk down the street and buy one of these:

You can draw your own 10 litre mark on it.

 

[arespencer]

Don't ever use the collapsible accordion tanks.
They are prone to porous admission of oxygen at the folds, and they are extremely difficult to clean thoroughly.
Soda bottles work well - particularly the heavier walled ones.
I like the 2 litre "Growler" glass bottles with the extra finger grip and beer suitable caps, but you may prefer to avoid glass.
These ones:
View attachment 414494

I don’t mind glass, but don’t you need to remove all the air from the bottle? What if I use 1L from here and then don’t print for a few weeks with only 1L sitting in there?

I know I’m annoyingly pushing for the 5 gallon tanks with floating lid but is there really a downside to using those with floating lids other than the size they will take up?

Maybe I go with the 2 gallon jugs and use those growler bottles to store the extra chemistry.

For mixing, a pail.
I can walk down the street and buy one of these:
View attachment 414493

You can draw your own 10 litre mark on it.

Ah yeah, does it get a little sketchy trying to pour the chemistry out of here into the storage bottles?

 

[DREW WILEY]

You should get some polyethylene funnels too. I like the kind with built-in screen filters.

 

[MattKing]

I don’t mind glass, but don’t you need to remove all the air from the bottle? What if I use 1L from here and then don’t print for a few weeks with only 1L sitting in there?

Probably not - unless the bottles leak.

Ah yeah, does it get a little sketchy trying to pour the chemistry out of here into the storage bottles?

Pour it first into a good, wide mouth 2 litre measuring graduate. I like using the Paterson Mixing Jug version:

 

[mshchem]

Here's my "2 gallon" Doran carboy. I think it would come very close to holding 10 liters. One other point is as you get down to the bottom you'll need to tilt the tank. I would estimate both the 5 gallon and the 2 gallon have about about 15mm below the bottom of the valve.

 

[mshchem]

I also have absolutely zero intention of spilling it haha.

I had a part time summer job when I was a kid, circa 1972. I was mixing up 2L of 1 molar silver nitrate solution. Apx 340 grams of silver nitrate in water, diluted to 2L @ 20°C. It's an endothermic process, so I had to wait for it to warm up to room temperature.
Long story short I brushed up against the black stone(like) lab counter with the 2L Pyrex volumetric flask and kablooey.
That was back when silver was about 3 dollars an ounce, so minimal financial loss, but the clean up was interesting. The floor tiles did the gradually turning black over the next month as the hydrochloric acid fumes in the air reacted with the silver nitrate. @Andrew O'Neill taught this except he uses paper not linoleum with 20 layers of floor wax.

I remember another adventure where a tank of 50% sodium hydroxide, under pressure, blew a line and pumped at least a gallon of the stuff all over a counter, and filled drawers. We grabbed a 50 lb bag of citric acid and dumped it on the mess, gradually, trying not to melt the linoleum.

This was old school analytical chem lab, RA4 is more benign, well unless it runs all over.

 

[mshchem]

One other thing. Alkaline solutions can leak past the valves on carboys. Ask me how I know.

You'll notice that the picture I attached is a tank with WORKING strength hypo clearing agent, the Stock solution (1 part stock plus 4 parts water = working strength) leaks past the valve. Ask me how I know.

It doesn't take much, even 1/10th normal sodium hydroxide solution will weap past a Teflon stopcock (but it won't past Dow Corning silicone vacuum grease!)

I would suggest trial runs, or do what I did when I was 10 years old, summer vacation I decided to try and make some prints. I discovered that as I poured pure glacial acetic acid into an Ace hard rubber tray that it wasn't diluted (10cc/L) working stop bath. I got it back in the bottle, and the tray in the laundry tub.

Boy I've done some dumb stuff.

 

[mshchem]

Probably not - unless the bottles leak.

Pour it first into a good, wide mouth 2 litre measuring graduate. I like using the Paterson Mixing Jug version:
View attachment 414506

When I mix up my 5L batches of XTOL I use a similar 1L beaker to "bail" the solution into the storage bottles.

 

[arespencer]

One other thing. Alkaline solutions can leak past the valves on carboys. Ask me how I know.

You'll notice that the picture I attached is a tank with WORKING strength hypo clearing agent, the Stock solution (1 part stock plus 4 parts water = working strength) leaks past the valve. Ask me how I know.

It doesn't take much, even 1/10th normal sodium hydroxide solution will weap past a Teflon stopcock (but it won't past Dow Corning silicone vacuum grease!)

I would suggest trial runs, or do what I did when I was 10 years old, summer vacation I decided to try and make some prints. I discovered that as I poured pure glacial acetic acid into an Ace hard rubber tray that it wasn't diluted (10cc/L) working stop bath. I got it back in the bottle, and the tray in the laundry tub.

Boy I've done some dumb stuff.

Haha incredible. So RA4 is alkaline right? It would be weird for these companies to sell a storage container that will leak the chemicals they are ment to store?

Well my confession is the other night I panic bought 5 gallon containers with floating lids so I guess I’m committed to trying that. I saw that they had disappeared from freestyle photo website and stock was running low on the few other places I could find them.

 

[mshchem]

Haha incredible. So RA4 is alkaline right? It would be weird for these companies to sell a storage container that will leak the chemicals they are ment to store?

Well my confession is the other night I panic bought 5 gallon containers with floating lids so I guess I’m committed to trying that. I saw that they had disappeared from freestyle photo website and stock was running low on the few other places I could find them.

It will be fine, I've never tried storing color developer in these things. Try it out and keep an eye on it. Blix should be good. It's the cheapo drum tap that's an issue. You can always put a piece of Tygon tube and a clamp on it if required .

You'll be fine. Fortune favors the brave (or bold ? ) Boy I would save up for a inexpensive ac unit for your place.
I love building darkrooms.

Don't accidentally drill through a box of Ilfochrome paper when you're in a rush (ask me how I know )

 

[arespencer]

You'll be fine. Fortune favors the brave (or bold ? ) Boy I would save up for an inexpensive ac unit for your place.
I love building darkrooms.

Why the AC unit? Just comfort or something else? I’m interested to see how it will be in the summer time (Southern California) and how hot the garage gets. I know it stays fairly cool in there but I’ve also never spend hours on end in there in the summer time. I at least figure my drums will keep chemicals at temp easier haha.

I’ve also been very excited building my darkroom and making everything work in my space custom to my needs and workflow.

 

[btaylor]

Why the AC unit? Just comfort or something else? I’m interested to see how it will be in the summer time (Southern California) and how hot the garage gets.

I don’t know what part of SoCal you’re in, but you may need/want a way to temper the temperature in your darkroom. I’m near Pasadena, I need A/C in summer and heat in the winter to work comfortably.

 

[mshchem]

Why the AC unit? Just comfort or something else? I’m interested to see how it will be in the summer time (Southern California) and how hot the garage gets. I know it stays fairly cool in there but I’ve also never spend hours on end in there in the summer time. I at least figure my drums will keep chemicals at temp easier haha.

I’ve also been very excited building my darkroom and making everything work in my space custom to my needs and workflow.

I have a Ilford RC print dryer that will handle upto 20 inch wide prints, 99.9 % of the time 11x14 and under. Yields spectacular gloss on color and black and white. That thing has 3 quartz heaters, it will heat up a space quickly. It's fine if you don't leave it on.
My place is got central air, but it gets sultry when you're running big machines full of toasty warm water.
I would see how it goes.

Don't leave your enlarging lenses in a un-conditioned space or you will have fungus. Cool and damp is the worse.

 

[mshchem]

Of course depending on how liberal your neighborhood is you could work in a speedo with the garage door open.

You need to do whatever it takes!

 

[mshchem]

 

[koraks]

So RA4 is alkaline right?

Yes, and highly corrosive to some polymers/plastics. I've stored RA4 developer replenisher in polypropylene bottles years ago, only to come into my darkroom one day to find a puddle of replenisher underneath a half-full bottle. The stuff had simply eaten through the walls of the bottle.
PET doesn't exhibit this problem, so typical soda bottles are fine to use. Since they're semi-flexible, you can squeeze out some of the excess air on top if the bottle isn't entirely full.

 

[arespencer]

I have a Ilford RC print dryer that will handle upto 20 inch wide prints, 99.9 % of the time 11x14 and under. Yields spectacular gloss on color and black and white. That thing has 3 quartz heaters, it will heat up a space quickly. It's fine if you don't leave it on.
My place is got central air, but it gets sultry when you're running big machines full of toasty warm water.
I would see how it goes.

Don't leave your enlarging lenses in a un-conditioned space or you will have fungus. Cool and damp is the worse.

Ahh I see. I have an Arkay RC1100 (up to 12”) so I’d assume it’ll generate less heat than your 20”. I was planning on leaving it off then flipping it on somewhere in the developing/washing stage to dry that current print. I’m gonna be in my garage so I don’t know how effective a 8 or 10,000 BTU unit will be. But certainly something to consider if it gets too hot to be in there for 8 hours.

Also good tip on the lenses. I’ll probably store those in my dry cabinet with all my other cameras and lenses especially when I upgrade the lens on my enlarger to something a bit nicer.

 

[arespencer]

Of course depending on how liberal your neighborhood is you could work in a speedo with the garage door open.

You need to do whatever it takes!

My garage is in the back of my driveway behind my fence so I could really take a page out of the naked photographers playbook on YouTube haha. But I do see some surf shorts and no shirt printing days in the future with periodic showers in the outside shower.