Help with Kodak RA4 Chemistry

[mshchem]

You need to print out the entire Z-130 manual for Ektacolor chemistry. Go to Kinkos or someone who can print out on both sides on heavy paper and put it in a binder.

Kodak and Fuji chemistry was identical in the day. You would find the exact same dilutions, starter volumes etc.

Today PSI is simply manufacturing chemistry as Eastman Kodak did back in the day. Nothing is new and improved. The big processing labs never desired change so nothing has.

 

[mshchem]

Drew hasn't go a clue about Maxima. But many of us use it.

Boy I want some. But I want cut sheets. Adox here's a niche that can be filled

 

[arespencer]

Yes! Perfect. You have enough starter to sell individual bottles Cinestill is trying to sell case quantities of everything to push individuals into the kits. I use cut sheets from B&H DP2

Haha yeah I’ve got enough to last me awhile. I do print somewhat high volume ish so I’m sure I’ll go through it in a reasonable time.

B&H has cut sheets of DPII???? I did recently notice that they now sell rolls of DPII which I’m almost positive they didn’t up until recently because I’ve been trying to source it for the last couple years in the states. I definitely need a cheaper option because my last paper order from London was $615 for 300 sheets of 10x12.

 

[arespencer]

Boy I want some. But I want cut sheets. Adox here's a niche that can be filled

In LA I see more and more people working with film and darkroom printing (professionals and hobbyist). Hopefully this helps support the industry and brings more papers to market.

 

[koraks]

Who other than Drew has access to Maxima?

Drew doesn't in fact. He's mentioned it several times. I could, but I don't bother with the long rolls since I mostly/only print small and don't sell my prints, and therefore stick with DPII.

Was hoping to do a wash in the drum at 30° and then into a print washing tray at tap water then into a dryer.

That's fine. You can wash at virtually any temperature you want, but I wouldn't go below room temperature. The cooler the wash, the longer it needs to be. You can always compare a well-washed sample (unexposed) to the border of your washed prints. If the prints aren't fully washed, you'll notice the whites are ever so slightly warm in hue. You'll never notice it if you don't compare side by side; it's easily missed.

Kodak and Fuji chemistry was identical in the day.

There's no such thing as "fuji chemistry". There are currently at least two manufacturers of FUJIFILM photo chemistry; one in Japan and one in Belgium. Both have fairly extensive product ranges and there can be (often are) different products for the same application (color paper, C41, E6) - and they generally have different dilutions etc. So there's no way you can compare "Fuji" to "Kodak" chemistry in a meaningful way.
Always stick with the mixing instructions for the specific product used. Don't assume it's "identical". It may be very close.
I can virtually guarantee you that Kodak and Fuji RA4 developer 'in the day' were not identical, although mixing ratios for certain products might have been the same also to make it easier for labs to switch over from one mfgr. to another (mostly from Kodak to Fuji, since the latter pressed the former out of the market in many areas quite effectively).

Adox here's a niche that can be filled

They know/knew about it but didn't choose that option when it was offered to them.

 

[mshchem]

Drew doesn't in fact. He's mentioned it several times. I could, but I don't bother with the long rolls since I mostly/only print small and don't sell my prints, and therefore stick with DPII.


That's fine. You can wash at virtually any temperature you want, but I wouldn't go below room temperature. The cooler the wash, the longer it needs to be. You can always compare a well-washed sample (unexposed) to the border of your washed prints. If the prints aren't fully washed, you'll notice the whites are ever so slightly warm in hue. You'll never notice it if you don't compare side by side; it's easily missed.


There's no such thing as "fuji chemistry". There are currently at least two manufacturers of FUJIFILM photo chemistry; one in Japan and one in Belgium. Both have fairly extensive product ranges and there can be (often are) different products for the same application (color paper, C41, E6) - and they generally have different dilutions etc. So there's no way you can compare "Fuji" to "Kodak" chemistry in a meaningful way.
Always stick with the mixing instructions for the specific product used. Don't assume it's "identical". It may be very close.
I can virtually guarantee you that Kodak and Fuji RA4 developer 'in the day' were not identical, although mixing ratios for certain products might have been the same also to make it easier for labs to switch over from one mfgr. to another (mostly from Kodak to Fuji, since the latter pressed the former out of the market in many areas quite effectively).



They know/knew about it but didn't choose that option when it was offered to them.

There's still Fujifilm chemistry made in the USA. And while not identical are interchangeable. If you're trying to sell a big outfit chemistry you can't ask them to dump 100's of gallons of tanks of Kodak. The chemistry I have is maybe a year old.

OG TRAY SIPHON MADE FOR KODAK.

 

[mshchem]

I haven't bought any color chemistry in the last 18 months. The stuff last received from Unique Photo was Fujifilm stuff made in Illinois by FujiHuht. Not sure if the global product move has changed this. So I will say sure it's coming from Belgium.

 

[mshchem]

I just tried ordering some Fuji universal fixer from Unique 100 liters is 97 usd, then add 190 usd shipping

There's a sea change here. Don't expect to be able to buy small quantities of the "real stuff" it's going to be in industrial sizes or kits. Looks like PSI is the best solution here in the usa.

I need to quit messing with this stuff but it keeps pulling me back.

 

[mshchem]

 

[arespencer]

I just tried ordering some Fuji universal fixer from Unique 100 liters is 97 usd, then add 190 usd shipping

There's a sea change here. Don't expect to be able to buy small quantities of the "real stuff" it's going to be in industrial sizes or kits. Looks like PSI is the best solution here in the usa.

I need to quit messing with this stuff but it keeps pulling me back.

How big do you think industrial quantities is? The 40L sizes that currently being offered by Kodak seems perfect for me. Hopefully those stick around. If they do larger I’ll probably have to find people to go in on an order together

 

[mshchem]

GO TO 125PX.COM AND DOWNLOAD THESE MANUALS. GET THEM PRINTED. I INHERITED THESE FROM MY FRIENDS WHO CLOSED SHOPS. BEAUTIFUL LITERATURE. 125PX.COM HAS FUJIFILM AND OTHER'S TECHNICAL INFORMATION AS WELL.

 

[arespencer]

What needs to be kept in always full bottles is the replenisher and the tank solutions.

Back in the ancient times people used 1 gallon tanks with floating lids and print

I’m looking at placing an order for jugs for chemical storage. I found that they still sell 5 gallon jugs with floating lids and has the spigot at the bottom. 5 gallons is a little bit over kill for the 10 liters of replenisher and blix I’ll be making and storing but the next size down is 2 gallons.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43195-REG/Doran_PRPRT5_Chemical_Storage_Tank_5.html

Wondering if you or anyone else has suggestions for other options to store my replenisher and blix. I like the idea of having 1 jug that I can easily pull from to make tank solution from.

 

[MattKing]

A few people seem to get good results with wine bags. I use them for both film and paper developer for black and white.

 

[mshchem]

Yeah the wine "bladders" are designed for minimal gas permeability. Some are like Mylar, like the weird balloons, metallic, that will hold Helium for weeks.

The simplest solution is go and buy 2 liter bottles of Coke, dump the Soda down the drain. Buy some smaller ones too.

Tanks with floating lids like the Doran ones are nice but you need to look for some of the smaller ones. I have one I use for Kodak Hypo Clearing Agent, works fine. I have noticed stock solutions with high concentrations of sulfites will seep past the valve on the Doran Tanks, dilute working solutions seem OK.

Depends how much you want to spend etc.

My tanks are used, from a camera shop that used for HC-110 replenished, dilution B. Worked great.

 

[koraks]

Wine blags/bladders can work; I tried them, but find them inconvenient to fill and, most importantly, clean. I also dislike the fact you can't see the contents.
10L isn't all that much; use a couple of soda bottles 1.5-2L size, whatever your local supermarket sells. PET soda bottles are pretty good for this purpose as they have very, very low air permeability (otherwise the soda would go dead).

 

[DREW WILEY]

The rather hard to get 24 inch roll width seems to now be available in Maxima itself in the US now. I plan to order a roll of it in about a month, when shipping headaches simmer down a bit. It should be easier to handle than 30 and 40 inch wide rolls, and will be convenient to cut down to both 24X30 and 20X24 sheets, plus the smaller sizes too.

So far, I have used the 3-part Kodak Ra/Rt developer kits, and the identically formulated kits batched under the Arista and Silver Pixel brands, which seem to be Champion mfg. These are all essentially "starters", great for drum use. The commercial labs almost strictly use Fuji chem these days, which have gone "mono" (one part). But I'm a little bit hesitant to have to potentially recalibrate some of my procedure to a new product. Fuji chem is more affordable, but the wide selection of it is a little confusing in terms of one-shot drum usage.

As for washing, except for test strips, I always overdo it, namely 5 or 6 changes of water for a minute or two each time, in drum; in other words, at least 5 minutes cumulative wash time. My drums have internal ribs, so the wash water gets behind the print too. And I'm very generous with the volume, since my roller processor has a strong gear-motor. I have no scientific evidence to support this habit; but I have always assumed more washing is better than less.

 

[arespencer]

Wine blags/bladders can work; I tried them, but find them inconvenient to fill and, most importantly, clean. I also dislike the fact you can't see the contents.
10L isn't all that much; use a couple of soda bottles 1.5-2L size, whatever your local supermarket sells. PET soda bottles are pretty good for this purpose as they have very, very low air permeability (otherwise the soda would go dead).

I was almost going to do wine bags but filling them did seem like a hassle and I didn’t even think about washing them. I think I’m just going to order the 5 gallon jugs with floating lids. I know they are a bit too big for my 10L batches but being able to put them on a shelf and easily dispense chems to mix tank solution was really something I wanted. And it doesn’t seem like there are any other options between the 5 gallon jugs and soda bottles. It’s a shame the next size down is 2 gallons and there no options that can hold 10 liters

 

[arespencer]

The rather hard to get 24 inch roll width seems to now be available in Maxima itself in the US now. I plan to order a roll of it in about a month, when shipping headaches simmer down a bit. It should be easier to handle than 30 and 40 inch wide rolls, and will be convenient to cut down to both 24X30 and 20X24 sheets, plus the smaller sizes too.

So far, I have used the 3-part Kodak Ra/Rt developer kits, and the identically formulated kits batched under the Arista and Silver Pixel brands, which seem to be Champion mfg. These are all essentially "starters", great for drum use. The commercial labs almost strictly use Fuji chem these days, which have gone "mono" (one part). But I'm a little bit hesitant to have to potentially recalibrate some of my procedure to a new product. Fuji chem is more affordable, but the wide selection of it is a little confusing in terms of one-shot drum usage.

As for washing, except for test strips, I always overdo it, namely 5 or 6 changes of water for a minute or two each time, in drum; in other words, at least 5 minutes cumulative wash time. My drums have internal ribs, so the wash water gets behind the print too. And I'm very generous with the volume, since my roller processor has a strong gear-motor. I have no scientific evidence to support this habit; but I have always assumed more washing is better than less.

Could you explain more what those chemicals being “starters” mean? I ordered the Kodak single part replenisher and the single part starter. But I’m still learning and getting a firmer understanding on what exactly I need and don’t need.

I have all Jobo 2800 drums coming in the mail so I’m thinking I’ll start with doing my washing in the drum, something like 3 or 4 30 second washes (also with generous water). Although a print washing system will be nice in the future, so that I can do other things while it’s washing. Like washing/drying drums.

 

[DREW WILEY]

That's how it was labeled, Kodak RA/Rt. I'd have to look up the old product number in the lab. It could be used for both starter and replenisher. The Kodak label version has pretty much disappeared. But the direct equivalent is being sold as Silver Pixel RA-4 RT by Freestyle. These are 3-part.

I use chem in drums one-shot, and never replenish, and only mix enough at a time for a one-day session.

 

[arespencer]

That's how it was labeled, Kodak RA/Rt. I'd have to look up the old product number in the lab. It could be used for both starter and replenisher. The Kodak label version has pretty much disappeared. But the direct equivalent is being sold as Silver Pixel RA-4 RT by Freestyle. These are 3-part.

I use chem in drums one-shot, and never replenish, and only mix enough at a time for a one-day session.

Ah ok, yeah I was originally gonna buy silver pixel chems but was confused on the whole starter thing. So does silver pixel developer/replenisher not need a starter? I was told they used to make a starter and that it still does need some sort of starter.

I’m building out my darkroom for the same setup, Jobo drums (with a uniroller)
and one shot both developer and blix.

Cant wait to come back from holiday and start testing and dial it all in. I’ve got 3 Jobo 2840 drums and 1 2830 test drum. So I’ll have 4 drums I can do test strips in without washing and drying drums and then wash and dry everything and then I can do 3 full size prints without having to dry drums. I’ve also tested out rinsing and drying drums and with a bunch of cloths on hand and a blow dryer I don’t think it’s really that time consuming. I’m pretty sure I can wash and dry and drum in the time the print will be washing and then ran through the print dryer.

 

[mshchem]

Could you explain more what those chemicals being “starters” mean? I ordered the Kodak single part replenisher and the single part starter. But I’m still learning and getting a firmer understanding on what exactly I need and don’t need.

I have all Jobo 2800 drums coming in the mail so I’m thinking I’ll start with doing my washing in the drum, something like 3 or 4 30 second washes (also with generous water). Although a print washing system will be nice in the future, so that I can do other things while it’s washing. Like washing/drying drums.

Fuji would sell "start up" packaging for preparing fresh "working tank solution " for their processors. Seemed like they were trying to take care of their customers that use the cartridges for the Fuji Frontier machines.

These start up kits are quite expensive. Another cost associated with having low wage untrained folks running the machines.

I would really caution you buying the enormous 5 gallon tanks. Think about it.

 

[arespencer]

Fuji would sell "start up" packaging for preparing fresh "working tank solution " for their processors. Seemed like they were trying to take care of their customers that use the cartridges for the Fuji Frontier machines.

These start up kits are quite expensive. Another cost associated with having low wage untrained folks running the machines.

I would really caution you buying the enormous 5 gallon tanks. Think about it.

Wait why would you caution buying the 5 gallon tank? Is there a downside or issue with storing just 10 liters in that tank?


This is the tank I’m talking about, are you thinking I’m talking about 5 gallons of chemicals?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43195-REG/Doran_PRPRT5_Chemical_Storage_Tank_5.html

 

[mshchem]

Wait why would you caution buying the 5 gallon tank? Is there a downside or issue with storing just 10 liters in that tank?


This is the tank I’m talking about, are you thinking I’m talking about 5 gallons of chemicals?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/43195-REG/Doran_PRPRT5_Chemical_Storage_Tank_5.html

I have both sizes. The 5 gallon tanks are pretty darn big. The smaller one full weighs about 20lbs full.

I can't recall, but the 10 liter batch you mention is for the mixed replenisher, correct?

You can make up the ten liters, take 6 liters, add starter and water to make the working solution, store the remaining in 2 liter bottles until you have room.

You want to use the smaller tank to reduce aerial oxidization.

Get out a tape measure and see how big they are.

The larger tanks are great if you need and have room. Bench vs. shelf for where these things go too.

 

[koraks]

It’s a shame the next size down is 2 gallons and there no options that can hold 10 liters

Would it be a problem if you had to store several bottles of the same bath? I never considered it to be an issue, personally. I make small prints most of the time and use small RT processors for this; they take 2.5L of chemistry, which I store in two bottles (the replenishers go in additional bottles).

I also agree with what @mshchem says about oxidation.
Full PET bottles with a screw cap are virtually impervious to oxygen permeation. A floating lid always has a little play along the edges, so it's a little less ideal. They will still work, but lifetime of esp. the developer will likely be a little shorter.

The wine bladders are probably OK if they're used once only, but I dislike creating unnecessary/avoidable waste, which is why I don't use them. The developer, when replenished and reused, tends to throw down a black precipitate that coats the walls of any vessel it's in. I've never found it to affect the prints in any way, but I like to periodically filter out or remove that debris anyway. With the blix, the main concern is that in a closed, opaque bag it's hard to see if/when it starts to sulfur out. Transparent bottles are overall just easier in many ways IMO.

 

[arespencer]

I have both sizes. The 5 gallon tanks are pretty darn big. The smaller one full weighs about 20lbs full.

I can't recall, but the 10 liter batch you mention is for the mixed replenisher, correct?

You can make up the ten liters, take 6 liters, add starter and water to make the working solution, store the remaining in 2 liter bottles until you have room.

You want to use the smaller tank to reduce aerial oxidization.

Get out a tape measure and see how big they are.

The larger tanks are great if you need and have room. Bench vs. shelf for where these things go too.

Yes each bottle of the Kodak Dev/replenisher and blix I have makes 10L. Then to make tank solution I pull 980ml of mixed replenisher and add starter and some water to make 1L of tank solution. I was thinking I mix tank solution on the day of printing and doing so at 1 or 2L depending on how much I plan on printing. Are you suggesting I just mix up a bigger batch of tank solution in the beginning and then dispense what I need for the print session? I was under the impression that mixed replenisher would last longer than tank solution. But if there’s no difference in life span between mixed replenisher and tank solution then I like the idea of having tank solution already bulk mixed and I just dispense whatever I want to use for that printing session and not have to mix tank solution at the start of every print session.


As for lifespan would there be any differences between the 2 gallon and 5 gallon jugs? Even though the 2 gallon would be utilizing a larger percentage of its capacity compared to the 5 gallon. The source of reduced lifespan is from the floating lid design allowing some air to get in. So would there be a notable difference between the 2 sizes?

My darkroom is being built in my garage, with the enlarger in a small light sealed room and everything else out in the open in the garage so space isn’t a major concern for the 5 gallon jugs but I am trying to build a somewhat space efficient wet station.