Gerbershagen The new Head of Kodak Alaris says he wants input.

[Hatchetman]

I have kind of an interesting job which gives me a lot of access to senior execs at mid-market companies. Many times I'll ask about one of their product lines and I'll hear..."oh, it doesn't make us any money. It keeps the customer happy and it keeps them from going to one of our competitors." I've heard that same line many many times.

 

[omaha]

We do stuff like that in my business. We have high-margin products and low-margin products, and the low-margin stuff is kept around precisely for the reason you state: We don't want a competitor getting in the door at one of our customers.

But I don't really see that applying here. What high-margin sales would KA be protecting by selling photographic film at low/no margins? The logic of selling the low margin stuff to protect accounts really only applies when selling to businesses.

But to Stone's point, I think there is some merit to what he is saying. For Kodak branded film to have a future, they need to maintain the market presence at the "top". I can see that having some relevance. If there is a progression of the future film customer (maybe its a re-entry film shooter starting in 35mm, then going to MF, then going to LF), you will only get them at the start if they see an unbroken path to the top.

I guess I just contradicted myself. Not the first time.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

No business has ever succeeded by loosing money on a product and trying to make it up on volume. First, KA has to figure out how to make a profit; perhaps then then can offer other items.

 

[StoneNYC]

No business has ever succeeded by loosing money on a product and trying to make it up on volume. First, KA has to figure out how to make a profit; perhaps then then can offer other items.

Well for one trim the color product line to just Portra, and sell the non-passable runs as "Consumer Portra" instead of making a separate batch...

And cut one of the 400 speed lines...

Carrying two 400 (and one 320) speeds is a lot...
This might mean killing TX and TXP and just keeping TMY-2.

Get rid of TMX, there's enough competition from other 100 speeds and seeing that alternative processes are becoming more popular, the imitations of TMX will limit many.

This gives them the strongest films and gives them the ability to make bigger runs that they need to with their larger machine.

But! They need to communicate that with the customers instead of just doing it with no explanation or people will become afraid and flight will happen...

 

[removed account4]

maybe they just need to market what they have
and hope when consumers buy film they
can figure out how to get it processed
seeing there are fewer labs left, worldwide
and if they want to sell more film they need to
deal with part b ( processing ) not only part a ( film )

kodak was built not only as a manufacturer but as
a photofinisher ... "you push the button we'll do the rest"
since they are no longer the "we" they need to find someone who is..

 

[AgX]

No business has ever succeeded by loosing money on a product and trying to make it up on volume. First, KA has to figure out how to make a profit; perhaps then then can offer other items.

Well, I know of a business on the market for 5 years now, cranking up their annual revenue up to 2 Billion Euro, but still not making profit. But consolidating their market position.

In the photochemical world Agfa did lose money with their cameraworks for about two decades, but still it was considered necessary for several reasons, untill finally manufacture was cancelled and the plant closed

 

[pbromaghin]

I have kind of an interesting job which gives me a lot of access to senior execs at mid-market companies. Many times I'll ask about one of their product lines and I'll hear..."oh, it doesn't make us any money. It keeps the customer happy and it keeps them from going to one of our competitors." I've heard that same line many many times.

You hang out with some pretty smart people. Giving up on your low margin lines is a prescription for disaster. Once you do that your compeitor then moves up into the higher margin line and makes even higher profit margins than they did in the market you gave up on. Keep giving up - your margins skyrocket but you make less and less money. This happened over and over to the US auto industry as first the Germans, then the Japanese, then the Koreans broke into the bottom of the market and then moved up.

 

[michaelbsc]

But! They need to communicate that with the customers instead of just doing it with no explanation or people will become afraid and flight will happen...

This is the most important.

 

[omaha]

That's right.

Somehow, US corporations always managed to create the impression that they were all about the board room and not the product. That may not be entirely fair, but I think there is something to it.

For example, compare GM to Volkswagen. Don't you get the impression that the Volkswagen people are truly "car guys" at heart, while the impression of the GM guys is that they are bean counters? Fair or not, that's how its long seemed to me.

Taking this thread and distilling it down, it seems like a lot of people are really asking KA to affirm that they are truly "film guys"...guys who love film, believe in it, and are committed to it as a medium. Ilford has created that image. To the extent they ever really get off the ground, Ferrania has created it too. KA does not have that at present.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

Gerbershagen only became Chief Executive Officer of Kodak Alaris Holdings Limited, effective Tuesday, April 1, 2014. Let's cut him some slack.

I highly recommend the new 11 Apr 14 interview from the Rochester Business Journal I mentioned in another thread http://rbj.net/article.asp?aID=207020

 

[omaha]

The fact that the word "film" does not appear in that article is not particularly encouraging. He talks about expanding into mobile applications, more on-line stuff, and then explains how they are going to find a way to monetize the hashtag "#kodakmoment". The only mention of "photo" is in the context of their kiosk business.

It would be easier to feel encouraged if he had at least mentioned film.

 

[Prof_Pixel]

The fact that the word "film" does not appear in that article is not particularly encouraging. He talks about expanding into mobile applications, more on-line stuff, and then explains how they are going to find a way to monetize the hashtag "#kodakmoment". The only mention of "photo" is in the context of their kiosk business.

It would be easier to feel encouraged if he had at least mentioned film.

A good point. I sent the following to the editor of the Rochester Business Journal: It's interesting to note that the word 'film' doesn't appear anywhere in the article. Lots of people are hoping that Kodak Alaris doesn't give up on film. Did the topic of film come up at all during the interview?

 

[AgX]

The fact that the word "film" does not appear in that article is not particularly encouraging... It would be easier to feel encouraged if he had at least mentioned film.

Most probably he did not even think of film.

 

[michaelbsc]

Most probably he did not even think of film.

Unfortunately hasn't this been the problem with Kodak for a while?

After years of thinking about it I believe the place where Kodak missed the boat was not failing to diversify into other imaging markets, although this is surely a component. I think where they missed their opportunity - and I am not saying I could have done better - is letting the idea of film become "old fashion" somehow.

I know a few years ago we were all complaining that it would help if they would just advertise the stuff, which they didn't.

A couple of million thrown at one of those Madison Avenue firms who can make the city dump look good wouldn't have hurt them. And the rate they were blowing through cash it would have been a blip.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

I know a few years ago we were all complaining that it would help if they would just advertise the stuff, which they didn't.

In recent years EK practiced The Microsoft Attitude approach to marketing. If people want our products, they know where to find us. When the storm hit they then refused to defend their core technology, while simultaneously diversifying into the new markets. And those markets then blew right past them, leaving them to wither on the vine and eventually declare bankruptcy. A life of printing packages after insolvency was never the preferred or anticipated outcome.

I read a telling statistic. It said that in the year 2000 93% of all computing devices ran a flavor of Windows. By last year that percentage had dropped to 19%. The reason was the proliferation of oceans of new computing platforms that didn't even exist in 2000 and now use everything but Windows.

Sound familiar?

The Attitude will kill you every time...

Ken

 

[michaelbsc]

The Attitude will kill you every time...

And the different attitude that will win is Simon's pronouncement that Ilford has every intention of being the "last man standing" in the end.

 

[StoneNYC]

And the different attitude that will win is Simon's pronouncement that Ilford has every intention of being the "last man standing" in the end.

+1

 

[Lee Rust]

Mr. Gerbershagen appears to be every bit the modern management type, so I would not expect him to make any visionary or idealistic moves. His task is to maximize profits for least cost and keep his pensioners happy. The worldwide consumer imaging marketplace is now almost exclusively driven by smartphone snapshots and selfies. Kodak Alaris sees those daily billions of unprinted images as their bread and butter opportunity, so their focus will be on printing kiosks and the Kodak Moment app. No film is used in kiosks and iPhones.

Back in the golden era of film, the old Kodak could afford to serve the specialized interests of photo hobbyists and artists. Darkroom supplies were a niche market loss-leader made possible by stupendous profits. But no more. The old profits and the old Kodak are gone. Film itself has become a niche market product, supportable at high volume manufacturing levels only because of the residual need for color movie film. Eventually the cinemas will all be digital, the Kodak film lines will be dismantled and we will have to rely on small manufacturers like Ilford and Ferrania for our film, paper and chemical supplies. As for Kodak Alaris, whenever their kiosks no longer need chromogenic photo paper to produce a quality print, the Kodak Moment will truly be over for us analog folks.

 

[ambaker]

Indeed, analog photography will come to an end.

All things end. In a few billion years, life will no longer be sustainable on earth. The sun will swell into a red giant, and the earth be consumed and vaporized. Not even a stone will survive. (sorry, StoneNYC)

Between now and then, I am going to go out and take pictures. I will revel in what I have, not what will someday be gone...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Xmas]

There was photography before George Eastmann.

 

[StoneNYC]

Indeed, analog photography will come to an end.

All things end. In a few billion years, life will no longer be sustainable on earth. The sun will swell into a red giant, and the earth be consumed and vaporized. Not even a stone will survive. (sorry, StoneNYC)

Between now and then, I am going to go out and take pictures. I will revel in what I have, not what will someday be gone...


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Hehe I will always be carbon or some other form, nothing is created nor destroyed only changed...

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I got a reply from the CEO that is very similar to the response everybody else have had.

I just hope somebody reads it and understands that I am one of their customers, maybe not individually significant, but representative of a serious enthusiast. One of my questions was what Alaris intends to do when the movie industry revenue dries up, how well prepared they are for that transition, and how they intend to scale down when their 35mm film production all of a sudden is a fraction of what it is today.
The other thing I was interested in was hearing how they intend to communicate with their market, and how they intend to gain people's trust in the name Kodak back.
I trust their products, but seriously doubt their viability a few years down the road.

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

Mr. Gerbershagen appears to be every bit the modern management type, so I would not expect him...

...to have his own darkroom. I knew it.



Ken

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

So, Portra 160, Portra 400 and TMax 400?

No Ektar and no TMax 100? (TMax 100 enables shooting landscape with 35mm and exploiting the full potential of the 35mm lenses).

Tri-X is as unique as TMax 400 in my opinion.

In my opinion, the only superfluous emulsion Kodak currently carries is the Ektar 100.

Well for one trim the color product line to just Portra, and sell the non-passable runs as "Consumer Portra" instead of making a separate batch...

And cut one of the 400 speed lines...

Carrying two 400 (and one 320) speeds is a lot...
This might mean killing TX and TXP and just keeping TMY-2.

Get rid of TMX, there's enough competition from other 100 speeds and seeing that alternative processes are becoming more popular, the imitations of TMX will limit many.

This gives them the strongest films and gives them the ability to make bigger runs that they need to with their larger machine.

But! They need to communicate that with the customers instead of just doing it with no explanation or people will become afraid and flight will happen...

 

[StoneNYC]

So, Portra 160, Portra 400 and TMax 400?

No Ektar and no TMax 100? (TMax 100 enables shooting landscape with 35mm and exploiting the full potential of the 35mm lenses).

Tri-X is as unique as TMax 400 in my opinion.

In my opinion, the only superfluous emulsion Kodak currently carries is the Ektar 100.

In another thread I mentioned that I hope that Kodak would buy out Fuji or something like that and take over the Fuji line as well, so I was thinking that when I said nothing about ektar.

The lineup I see happening would be...

Velvia50(or 100 or both if possible)
Portra 160
Portra 400
Tmax400

This isn't about getting rid of "bad" lines of film, this is about cutting down lines that have competition.

Eventually Kodak's large machines will be coating larger batches than they can sell, so they need to slim down similar lines and focus on the stuff that doesn't compete with anything else.

The "supermarket" lines would simply be from runs that didn't pass Kodak's high quality check standards, and when they didn't have any failed runs, the supermarket stuff would be just as good, but for those who wanted a guarantee they would buy the Portra professional film and the Portra consumer line would be hit or miss...but probably still really good stuff...

If they didn't have such a large coating machine, none of this would be necessary...

(And of course replace Velvia with Ektar100 for reality since kodak would never probably take over a Fuji emulsion and Fuji wouldn't hand the technology over to kodak anyway)

Perhaps maybe Fuji will sell the technology to FILM Ferrania...