Gerbershagen The new Head of Kodak Alaris says he wants input.

[eddie]

In another thread I mentioned that I hope that Kodak would buy out Fuji or something like that and take over the Fuji line as well, so I was thinking that when I said nothing about ektar.

The lineup I see happening would be...

Velvia50(or 100 or both if possible)
Portra 160
Portra 400
Tmax400

This isn't about getting rid of "bad" lines of film, this is about cutting down lines that have competition.

Eventually Kodak's large machines will be coating larger batches than they can sell, so they need to slim down similar lines and focus on the stuff that doesn't compete with anything else.

The "supermarket" lines would simply be from runs that didn't pass Kodak's high quality check standards, and when they didn't have any failed runs, the supermarket stuff would be just as good, but for those who wanted a guarantee they would buy the Portra professional film and the Portra consumer line would be hit or miss...but probably still really good stuff...

If they didn't have such a large coating machine, none of this would be necessary...

This is crazy...
You think they should drop to one B&W film? At the end of the day, B&W will be the last films being produced. Color will die off before B&W.
What you seem to be saying is Kodak shouldn't compete, and lower their QC standards (or at least pawn off the film that doesn't hit the standards). Their reputation was built on quality. Lowering their standards would be a good way to destroy that reputation.

 

[StoneNYC]

This is crazy...
You think they should drop to one B&W film? At the end of the day, B&W will be the last films being produced. Color will die off before B&W.
What you seem to be saying is Kodak shouldn't compete, and lower their QC standards (or at least pawn off the film that doesn't hit the standards). Their reputation was built on quality. Lowering their standards would be a good way to destroy that reputation.

This would raise the standard for their supermarket films which are terrible quality...

 

[removed account4]

This is crazy...
You think they should drop to one B&W film? At the end of the day, B&W will be the last films being produced. Color will die off before B&W.
What you seem to be saying is Kodak shouldn't compete, and lower their QC standards (or at least pawn off the film that doesn't hit the standards). Their reputation was built on quality. Lowering their standards would be a good way to destroy that reputation.

come on eddie
there is a fine line between a genius and a madman ...
personally i think they should only make one film and a camera ..
and they should these cameras with film in it loaded
with a mailer to send back to a lab, mail the prints to the consumer
and the camera loaded again with film.
the hell with 10 films, color and black + white

 

[AgX]

personally i think they should only make one film and a camera ..
and they should these cameras with film in it loaded
with a mailer to send back to a lab, mail the prints to the consumer
and the camera loaded again with film.
the hell with 10 films, color and black + white

They did but finally cancelled that concept...

 

[removed account4]

They did but finally cancelled that concept...

heavens to murgatroyd, the mountebanks have capitalized on mine idea!
twas really a good concept, and would work wonders
now that we are repeating part 1 of the original story.

 

[removed account4]

i don't know ...
the lowest common denominator works in the tv and film and radio / commercial entertainment industry.
if they just reduce everything down to crappy film maybe it will work in the film photography industry
crappy digital cameras sell like hotcakes, no ?

luckily none of us have any bearing on what the big wigs in england and rochester do, or even think about.
i thought the letter writing campaign was entertaining at least.
very different than the attitude of the good folks at ilford who actually
participate here and regard our feedback as something useful and helpful ( if not entertaining as well )

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I think you're off by a mile, Stone. Color film is being eaten alive by digital. Why focus on color film? The only survivor of all films is going to be black & white.

Personally I enjoy shooting one single emulsion a lot, but there are plenty of people out there who can't wait to try out all of the available films, just so they can get the 'look' of a particular emulsion... If you limit yourself to one b&w emulsion, you are going to kill a very large following of the other films.

I don't see you logic at all. Fuji will not sell off their technology, and Ferrania will not have the money to buy it anyway. Smaller players like ADOX will survive. Ilford will be fine because they are flexible.

In my letter to the president I told Kodak Alaris to closely take a look at companies like ADOX and Ilford, who not only participate actively among photographers, actual end users, but they have also intelligently sized their equipment to meet the demands of a shrinking market. I'm sure Ferrania has done the same math. Large scale film production is a thing of the past. Flexibility is the only way to go. Once the movie industry demand disappears to less volume than Kodak can manufacture without film getting old between coatings will be the pain threshold. Then it'll be free fall for color film on large scale.

In another thread I mentioned that I hope that Kodak would buy out Fuji or something like that and take over the Fuji line as well, so I was thinking that when I said nothing about ektar.

The lineup I see happening would be...

Velvia50(or 100 or both if possible)
Portra 160
Portra 400
Tmax400

This isn't about getting rid of "bad" lines of film, this is about cutting down lines that have competition.

Eventually Kodak's large machines will be coating larger batches than they can sell, so they need to slim down similar lines and focus on the stuff that doesn't compete with anything else.

The "supermarket" lines would simply be from runs that didn't pass Kodak's high quality check standards, and when they didn't have any failed runs, the supermarket stuff would be just as good, but for those who wanted a guarantee they would buy the Portra professional film and the Portra consumer line would be hit or miss...but probably still really good stuff...

If they didn't have such a large coating machine, none of this would be necessary...

(And of course replace Velvia with Ektar100 for reality since kodak would never probably take over a Fuji emulsion and Fuji wouldn't hand the technology over to kodak anyway)

Perhaps maybe Fuji will sell the technology to FILM Ferrania...

 

[StoneNYC]

I think you're off by a mile, Stone. Color film is being eaten alive by digital. Why focus on color film? The only survivor of all films is going to be black & white.

Personally I enjoy shooting one single emulsion a lot, but there are plenty of people out there who can't wait to try out all of the available films, just so they can get the 'look' of a particular emulsion... If you limit yourself to one b&w emulsion, you are going to kill a very large following of the other films.

I don't see you logic at all. Fuji will not sell off their technology, and Ferrania will not have the money to buy it anyway. Smaller players like ADOX will survive. Ilford will be fine because they are flexible.

In my letter to the president I told Kodak Alaris to closely take a look at companies like ADOX and Ilford, who not only participate actively among photographers, actual end users, but they have also intelligently sized their equipment to meet the demands of a shrinking market. I'm sure Ferrania has done the same math. Large scale film production is a thing of the past. Flexibility is the only way to go. Once the movie industry demand disappears to less volume than Kodak can manufacture without film getting old between coatings will be the pain threshold. Then it'll be free fall for color film on large scale.

I agree with you about the fact that scaling down is the best option, but that's why I was saying about cutting back on film lines because Kodak CANNOT scale down, the machine is too massive that they currently have and the cost of producing a new machine is just too high, so Kodak has to take a different approach than the other companies in order to stay in the game.

 

[RattyMouse]

I'm watching Fujifilm. They are at the last one standing with regards to having a decent product line by breadth. As a 120 shooter, they have these films for me.

E-6
Velvia
Provia

C41
400H

B & W
Acros

This would be relatively ideal if they had a 400 speed Neopan still around.

Thankfully, Ilford is here and can and has taken up that slack for my shooting needs.

Reala 100 would make that list perfect (as well as dropping Provia for Astia), but I guess we could survive on this.

 

[StoneNYC]

I'm watching Fujifilm. They are at the last one standing with regards to having a decent product line by breadth. As a 120 shooter, they have these films for me.

E-6
Velvia
Provia

C41
400H

B & W
Acros

This would be relatively ideal if they had a 400 speed Neopan still around.

Thankfully, Ilford is here and can and has taken up that slack for my shooting needs.

Reala 100 would make that list perfect (as well as dropping Provia for Astia), but I guess we could survive on this.

I almost agree with you, (but the 400H has a weird cast I don't really like, then again, it's CN and I don't like any CN lol.

And again agree on the Neopan400.

My only issue with Fuji is the price if the Acros100 in sheet film, if they could get it down to ilford prices (and cut it in 8x10 again) I might even give up ilford D100 for all Acros...

 

[Arctic amateur]

I agree with you about the fact that scaling down is the best option, but that's why I was saying about cutting back on film lines because Kodak CANNOT scale down, the machine is too massive that they currently have and the cost of producing a new machine is just too high, so Kodak has to take a different approach than the other companies in order to stay in the game.

They could theoretically rent time on a different coating machine. According to PE it would be far from trivial to move production without changing the product, but if the choice is either shutting down the Kodak brand or making the film on Harman's or Agfa's coating facility...

 

[StoneNYC]

They could theoretically rent time on a different coating machine. According to PE it would be far from trivial to move production without changing the product, but if the choice is either shutting down the Kodak brand or making the film on Harman's or Agfa's coating facility...

Except kodak would have to give away all of their secrets to another company, it's not like Harmon would let all the kodak people run their previous machine, they would coat FOR kodak, but then it wouldn't really be Kodak's emulsions etc. Part of the quality of the kodak film is their specialized machine they designed to be almost completely without emulsion flaws...

 

[removed account4]

stone
while your ideas are as good as anyone else's ideas ...
i find it strange that in the twilight of color film
anyone would spend millions ( or billions ? ) of dollars
buying out another company's film lines.
while it is sad that color may be the first thing to do
sometimes one just has to "let go"
its like when kodachrome went and people hoarded the film
then the machine was mothballed and now they are stuck
with a garage of film ... we live in another time
where color image making will probably either be done as it was in 1900
using alternative process techniques with paints, dyes, and the human touch like gum over or bromoil &c
or through digital means ( or both ). buying out fuji would only be resources wasted
on a media that will be gone soon, when they could use those resources to figure out how to
shorten a run, or modify a machine to work differently &c.
i don't have a crystal ball by anymeans but it is kind of obvious when there are only 1000 labs remaining
when a year ago maybe there were 2000 and 5years before that 10,000
im not really sure what the point is in re-invigorating a medium which is nearly obsolete because 10000 people
( amateurs/professional amateurs ) or whoever uses it ... they certainly won't buy enough to make the multi million dollar
purchase of another company viable, and if they do, there are fewer and fewer labs to process the film.
then again, if they DO reinvigorate the whole color film thing, they better have a way to partner with or create
a lab to process the film seeing kodak was the largest supplier of color films and the largest photofinisher in the world.

when ilford / harman technology created a lab where people could send their film and have it printed, that was a stroke of genius
because millions of people shoot film and don't process it themselves, and there are very few labs that process b/w commercially.

Part of the quality of the kodak film is their specialized machine they designed to be almost completely without emulsion flaws...

from what ron mowrey says / suggests there isn't a machine that coats emulsion nearly completely with out a flaw.
there are flaws, lots of them ... and they map them and know where NOT TO CUT
so those flaws don't end up in a box, the same way adox/efke, foma and ilford do.

it is easy to imagine a machine that creates without flaw because their product is a good one.

 

[StoneNYC]

Right so Kodak's machine has a way of identifying where the bad spots are, something that they couldn't do necessarily on other machines so my point is still valid.

 

[removed account4]

if you say so

 

[Xmas]

I agree with you about the fact that scaling down is the best option, but that's why I was saying about cutting back on film lines because Kodak CANNOT scale down, the machine is too massive that they currently have and the cost of producing a new machine is just too high, so Kodak has to take a different approach than the other companies in order to stay in the game.

Ha...
If Kodak management had said they thought that film was not dead their shared price and credit rating would have dropped like a stone!
EK upped cine film (like 5222) and process supplies 10% Jan14, citing reduced volume, that won't help sales?
Not noticed my Kodak ink or inkjet paper getting more expensive, it is really cheap over the counter here.
Fuji have been dumping (rebadged) 200ISO C41 at less than production for some time. You can still buy it in a green box if you like paying a premium $.
APX100 was still old stock as of Feb'14... perhaps they have been reducing volume?
I was on a preserved steam railway last Thursday and the wrinkley ticket collector said 'woo not seen a 35 mm being used for years.' everyone else on the railway had a dcamera or phone.
Our major pharmaceutical chain was still selling film buy one get one half price - they are still over stocking a lifed item they have had film offers for two years.

 

[kuparikettu]

Regarding the future of color film and the discussion on it being dependant on movie film: unless Fuji has been all this time selling old stock, we already have some proof that photographic color film viability doesn't depend on motion picture film stocks (printfilm or ECN2). Fuji has already gotten out of that business and yet they are still in the color film photography business...

But sure, maybe they have already demolished the coating machines and are just selling stored film...

 

[Xmas]

Regarding the future of color film and the discussion on it being dependant on movie film: unless Fuji has been all this time selling old stock, we already have some proof that photographic color film viability doesn't depend on motion picture film stocks (printfilm or ECN2). Fuji has already gotten out of that business and yet they are still in the color film photography business...

But sure, maybe they have already demolished the coating machines and are just selling stored film...

The parts of colour and mono manufacturing plant may be in common

Think agfa sold off most of their plant equipment but not for photography.

Cine theatres used to be next door to each other in towns and 400m apart in suburbs in 50s before televisions became the norm. That needed a lot of print film. An A movie, a news reel, and a B movie, Mon to Wed then different films Thur to Sat. The newsreel sometimes did not change at fixed times.

So cine film peaked some time before C41 still, which must have peaked 85-95?

Think the rebadged Fuji has been about for 18 months now, probably an overproduction, the 200 ISO is the point and shoot (P&S) film probably all the P&S people 'dissappeared', it is nice film.

Some of the small film manufacturers in eastern Europe have closed down.

 

[AgX]

Think agfa sold off most of their plant equipment but not for photography.

Agfa only sold a tiny part of their plants inventory.
Amongst that were two coating lines. One went for scrap metal, the other lives one for precision coating, amongst that custom coating of photographic materials.

 

[Prest_400]

I did write him and he replied back appreciating the concerns expressed (mainly about the niche market, future of production, and I mentioned about online marketing). He directed my mail to the Film Capture line manager (Mr. Mooney) and PR (Ms. Jonckeer)
Mr Mooney said that key message is that they will keep the current porfolio available as long as there is demand and they will keep going as long there is profit. All in all with a quite indefinite horizon and a calmed tone.
PR wise haven't received a reply yet.

So far nothing too specific or detailed. But as fas as it keeps going fine and profitable, they are keen on making film.

 

[StoneNYC]

They did write back to me just now.

This was the message, my two questions were,

1 IF Fuji cancels all their E6 would kodak re-cost some E100G.

2 remind them that by canceling a common film size like 8x10 they make it more difficult for customers who specialize on one film type for all formats to continue that, and that they may end up switching to another company if the 8x10 becomes difficult to obtain if not cut regularly. And asked if they would look into a yearly special order like ilford has, instead of limiting it to just when keith canham decides to organize a new group buy which would allow special orders from multiple distributors like ilford does, instead of just Keith. And then it would also be predictable instead of "when enough people run out".

This was the reply...

"Dear Mr. Stone,

Thanks for your feedback.

The key message to all the film shooters out there is that as we've made the transition from Eastman Kodak Company to Kodak Alaris, our full range of photographic films continues to be available.
To your Point 1, the Ektachrome decision was a very difficult one that we had to make more than two years ago. The manufacturing complexity involved in bringing E100G or E100VS back to market today makes for a very unattractive business case.

That said, please don't forget that as we trimmed our portfolio, we also continued to invest in our remaining films (Portra 160, Portra 400, and T-Max 400), and we also brought a new film, the very innovative EKTAR 100 to market. The films that Kodak Alaris offers today are the very best that Kodak has ever produced.

I understand your Point 2 about 8x10 format, and will look into what additional options we might be able to offer beyond the special-order setup we have with K. B. Canham Cameras.

Best regards,
Thomas J. Mooney | Product Line Business Mgr - Film Capture"

So, they actually read and replied, this is a good sign.

 

[cmacd123]

So, they actually read and replied, this is a good sign.

+!

 

[MattKing]

An interesting couple of responses

I too sent an email to Mr. Gerbershagen. I've received two interesting responses so far.

First, I'll post an excerpted version of my email below. The edited out parts include some details about the fact that my father worked for Kodak Canada for 35+ years, and that he remains close to his surviving colleagues, and loyal to his employer.

---

Mr. Ralf Gerbershagen
Chief Executive Officer
Kodak Alaris

Dear Mr. Gerbershagen:

Congratulations on your new role with Kodak Alaris.

As I understand it, you have requested suggestions and feedback from your customer base. With this email I hope to help.

I am a lifelong (40+ year) Canadian customer of Kodak, ......

I continue to use Kodak film products for a lot of my photography, and seek out labs who use Kodak materials. I also recommend them whenever I can, including recommending Kodak darkroom materials.

I am conversant with a fair bit of the digital photography world, but it is not my favourite photographic destination.

So as you can no doubt guess, my suggestions and feedback relate to the so called "analogue" Kodak photographic products.

My first and primary suggestion is that you address what I see to be a serious problem with your distribution system.

I have a fair bit of contact with people at the retail level in photographic merchandising and photographic processing in my area - the Vancouver area of British Columbia, Canada and the Seattle area of Washington state, USA.

Almost without exception, the people I deal with indicate:

1) they have difficulty obtaining, in a timely manner, Kodak film,darkroom chemistry or, in the case of the labs, Kodak paper or chemistry;and
2) they have little or no access to support people who can provide technical support.

Also, and more generally, I continually encounter people who don't believe that Kodak film or photographic materials still exist.

My sense is that there are a number of retailers in my area who would use and sell more Kodak materials if there was more information about them available to the public, and more merchandise available for retailers or labs.

And I definitely know of a number of people who would shoot more colour film and make their own colour prints if there were again available:

a) cut sheet colour paper for use in small labs/darkrooms;
b) reasonably sized kits for C-41 processing materials;
c) reasonably sized kits for RA-4 processing materials; and
d) reasonably sized kits for E-6 processing materials.

There have been a few statements from Kodak Alaris indicating that film products will remain available as long as they are profitable. That makes sense, but really fails to build confidence in those who use Kodak materials now but don't know whether to switch.

It would be very supportive of your existing customer base if we heard statements from Kodak Alaris that indicated:
A) Kodak Alaris intends to grow their film and analogue photography business;
B) Kodak Alaris will continue to strive to innovate and improve their existing film and analogue photography products;
C) Kodak Alaris will strive to introduce new film and analogue photography products where market conditions permit; and
D) Kodak Alaris will seek to increase the existing customer base for film and analogue photography products by promoting their real advantages to those who have either never used them before, or who would be happy to come back to them.

It would also be very supportive if you would have an active presence on the internet fora that are heavily oriented toward photographic issues. I am a very regular contributor on the Analogue Photographic Users Group forum - APUG.org. Harman/Ilford participate actively there,and seem to gain customers regularly - including people who stop using Kodak and start using Ilford because of that participation. If Kodak Alaris had a presence on that site it would sell a fair bit of film.

I learned about your request for input from an APUG thread.

Finally, I may as well add a personal request. If you could bring back Plus-X in 35mm and 120 sizes I would be very grateful.

I hope this might be of assistance to you. If you need anything further from me, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

Matt King

---

Here is Mr. Gerbershagen's response to me:

Dear Matt,

Thank you for reaching out to me. It's nice to meet you via e-mail.

I have cc'd our Paper & Output Systems Business Manager, Richard Condon as well as our Film Capture Business Manager, Thomas Mooney who can provide you with some additional information regarding your comments below.

I appreciate your kind words and look forward to our future. Please stay in touch with me.

Sincerely,

Ralf

---

I also received a further response from Thomas Mooney, the Film Capture Business Manager. It contained a standard form "confidentiality" warning, so I don't feel I can copy it here, without permission, but he did thank me and indicate that he will be bringing the concerns to the attention of their Canadian sales organization "to improve the situation"

 

[StoneNYC]

I too sent an email to Mr. Gerbershagen. I've received two interesting responses so far.

First, I'll post an excerpted version of my email below. The edited out parts include some details about the fact that my father worked for Kodak Canada for 35+ years, and that he remains close to his surviving colleagues, and loyal to his employer.

---

Mr. Ralf Gerbershagen
Chief Executive Officer
Kodak Alaris

Dear Mr. Gerbershagen:

Congratulations on your new role with Kodak Alaris.

As I understand it, you have requested suggestions and feedback from your customer base. With this email I hope to help.

I am a lifelong (40+ year) Canadian customer of Kodak, ......

I continue to use Kodak film products for a lot of my photography, and seek out labs who use Kodak materials. I also recommend them whenever I can, including recommending Kodak darkroom materials.

I am conversant with a fair bit of the digital photography world, but it is not my favourite photographic destination.

So as you can no doubt guess, my suggestions and feedback relate to the so called "analogue" Kodak photographic products.

My first and primary suggestion is that you address what I see to be a serious problem with your distribution system.

I have a fair bit of contact with people at the retail level in photographic merchandising and photographic processing in my area - the Vancouver area of British Columbia, Canada and the Seattle area of Washington state, USA.

Almost without exception, the people I deal with indicate:

1) they have difficulty obtaining, in a timely manner, Kodak film,darkroom chemistry or, in the case of the labs, Kodak paper or chemistry;and
2) they have little or no access to support people who can provide technical support.

Also, and more generally, I continually encounter people who don't believe that Kodak film or photographic materials still exist.

My sense is that there are a number of retailers in my area who would use and sell more Kodak materials if there was more information about them available to the public, and more merchandise available for retailers or labs.

And I definitely know of a number of people who would shoot more colour film and make their own colour prints if there were again available:

a) cut sheet colour paper for use in small labs/darkrooms;
b) reasonably sized kits for C-41 processing materials;
c) reasonably sized kits for RA-4 processing materials; and
d) reasonably sized kits for E-6 processing materials.

There have been a few statements from Kodak Alaris indicating that film products will remain available as long as they are profitable. That makes sense, but really fails to build confidence in those who use Kodak materials now but don't know whether to switch.

It would be very supportive of your existing customer base if we heard statements from Kodak Alaris that indicated:
A) Kodak Alaris intends to grow their film and analogue photography business;
B) Kodak Alaris will continue to strive to innovate and improve their existing film and analogue photography products;
C) Kodak Alaris will strive to introduce new film and analogue photography products where market conditions permit; and
D) Kodak Alaris will seek to increase the existing customer base for film and analogue photography products by promoting their real advantages to those who have either never used them before, or who would be happy to come back to them.

It would also be very supportive if you would have an active presence on the internet fora that are heavily oriented toward photographic issues. I am a very regular contributor on the Analogue Photographic Users Group forum - APUG.org. Harman/Ilford participate actively there,and seem to gain customers regularly - including people who stop using Kodak and start using Ilford because of that participation. If Kodak Alaris had a presence on that site it would sell a fair bit of film.

I learned about your request for input from an APUG thread.

Finally, I may as well add a personal request. If you could bring back Plus-X in 35mm and 120 sizes I would be very grateful.

I hope this might be of assistance to you. If you need anything further from me, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards,

Matt King

---

Here is Mr. Gerbershagen's response to me:

Dear Matt,

Thank you for reaching out to me. It's nice to meet you via e-mail.

I have cc'd our Paper & Output Systems Business Manager, Richard Condon as well as our Film Capture Business Manager, Thomas Mooney who can provide you with some additional information regarding your comments below.

I appreciate your kind words and look forward to our future. Please stay in touch with me.

Sincerely,

Ralf

---

I also received a further response from Thomas Mooney, the Film Capture Business Manager. It contained a standard form "confidentiality" warning, so I don't feel I can copy it here, without permission, but he did thank me and indicate that he will be bringing the concerns to the attention of their Canadian sales organization "to improve the situation"

My response did come with the standard confidentiality too, but being that my mother works at a law firm, I know that there are just part of the standard signature, and anything that I thought would actually be confidential I would have censored, but I felt all the info was standard and not something "sensitive". Call me a dare devil... Lol

That was a great letter, however you should have said "bring back E6!" Haha

Great email!

 

[MattKing]

Thanks Stone.
I think though that you don't understand about those confidentiality warnings .
It isn't up to the recipient to determine what is and isn't confidential, if the email says it is confidential.
It is different if the warning says that the email may be confidential.