Film vs. Scanning resolution

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Have you not made an error in calculating, surely 125 lppm = 125x2x 25.4 =6350 ppi?

I haven't. Someone else may have. Specifically, Silverfast gave me that conversion. They've been doing this awhile, so I'm not prepared to argue with their methodology.
 
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This deserves a long explanation:

No, it really doesn't-- at least, not in this discussion. I care not one whit about you and Lachlan's incessant feud about the v700 vs. the X1-- you've both occupied an extremist position bordering on religious fanaticism, and neither of you is going to budge, so why keep trying?

I've said it before-- given the price differential, the X1 had better deliver superior results, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of how to determine the best resolution to scan a particular negative.
 

Lachlan Young

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You are right, I was mixing concepts of the X5 with the X1 that cannot scan 24mm width, so we just need to upgrade those numbers by a 6900/6300 factor, this is a 9% higher values. My mistake... please understand that I made that rating several years ago and I missed a 9% capability

So the right numbers are: 1725dpi at extintion for 4x5", which is total contrast extintion at poor 34.5cy/mm, so MTF 50% is obtained at 17.25cy/mm instead 15.5. Well, not nice for such an expensive scanner, quite good for 35mm but with a really limited capability for 4x5". At 1750dpi you have zero contrast !

Again, you're guessing. The mechanism of the X5/ 949 allows 25mm - 99.6mm (officially 100mm) transmissive scanning (and this is largely limited by the light source - it could theoretically handle 5x7 negatives, and can handle reflective scanning up to 215x280 or so ). The X1/ 848 does 32mm - 120mm. Whatever 'results' you got were a combination of quality of operator, maintenance of machine & and your abilities or otherwise at copying a USAF focusing target. You are fundamentally trying to hang a whole sequence of claims over whether you could see element 2 or element 3 in group 5 - without publishing your claimed results for everyone to see.The filmscanner.info test took considerably more credible steps than you did & compared the Flextight's 4x5 setting to the supposed 2400ppi of an Epson 11000XL (which has autofocus) for scanning a real piece of film and (exactly the same as my experience) found the Epson severely wanting. In terms of your knowledge of imaging science you are firmly stuck in 1951 & that is why you are continuing to make claims that are so massively flawed as to be worthless as a comparison - by your testing methodology you would end up claiming that a disposable camera lens was 'outperforming' an average large format lens at f32-45. If you genuinely got bad scans off a Flextight, it was either really poorly maintained, or the operator was not very good.
 

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No, it really doesn't-- at least, not in this discussion. I care not one whit about you and Lachlan's incessant feud about the v700 vs. the X1-- you've both occupied an extremist position bordering on religious fanaticism, and neither of you is going to budge, so why keep trying?

I've said it before-- given the price differential, the X1 had better deliver superior results, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of how to determine the best resolution to scan a particular negative.

Honestly, I don't care - it's just that he can't handle that his 'methodology' is nonsense & that sheer number of pixels doesn't equal quality of pixels delivered. For most of what people do with their images online from bigger formats, an Epson is fine - just don't waste your time or storage capacity scanning stuff at vast resolutions or expect the n'th degree of colour reproduction. Unless you urgently need to go to vast sizes, a really good, low noise 8-12mp is likely just fine

Most high end scanners are a PITA in one way or another (almost all run on 1990's level computing technology at best - welcome to the fun of SCSI!) - the results are good, but I'll be incredibly happy if/ when camera scanning solutions mature just a little further in terms of overall system integration (essentially I'd like the ability to run an onboard LUT & spool the film past the lens, with automatic frame edge sensing & then dropped into raw files).
 
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138S

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how to determine the best resolution to scan a particular negative.

So this is quite easy... just scan several small crops (from the shapest region) at several dpi and compare. Use a x60 loupe to see what you missed. Straight, isn't it ?



I've said it before-- given the price differential, the X1 had better deliver superior results, but that's irrelevant to the discussion of how to determine the best resolution to scan a particular negative.

Well, it may matter...

Best resolution to scan a negative depends on the scanner.

The Epson and the X1 are quite different in the sense that they are systems limited by different constraints. The Epson is mostly limited by the lens performance covering an insane 5.9" width, while it has a 40k pix it only yields 5.9 x 2900 = 17,110 effective pixels in the scan width. The Epson lens is exceptionally good resolving those 17,000 effective pix, but the epson uses only 1" of the 5.9" covered to scan 35mm film. If the Epson had a lens covering 3" then yield would be twice...

Instead the X1 is mostly limited by the sampling density, sporting only 8000 pix in the scan width (instead 40,000 of the Epson).

With Portra or Fuji CN pro films you should aim 2500 effective resolving power, but with the Epson you have to scan well higher than that number to get effective 2500. With a Nikon ED or an X1 you may need a lower hardware sampling dpi tpo get those 2500 effective

We cannot say a number, because from 2000 dpi effective we have very dimishing returns, additional quality we extract is progressively lower at high pixel count cost. Mostly it depends on how sharp the negative is, on what you are to do with the image and on personal taste.


Again, you're guessing. The mechanism of the X5/ 949 allows 25mm - 99.6mm (officially 100mm) transmissive scanning ....

Lachlan, OP is not interested in our V vs X debate, so better if we leave it.
 
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You can review the comparison at https://www.filmscanner.info/en/EpsonPerfectionV800Photo.html
Effectively, the V800 is equal to the V850 and achieves slightly higher res then the V700. The V800 has better holders and faster scan times too.
The V850 comes with two sets of adjustable holders with ANR glass to keep the negatives flat. That speeds up the scanning process. You can be setting up the second holder while the first holder is being scanned. I believe the V850 has ICC slide for better color handling, but you may need the more advanced Silverfast. (I use Epsonscan). Epson claims that the lens on the V850 is better than the V700/V750. That accounts for the faster speed, so they say.

I did a comparison of 4x5 Tmax 100 scanned on my V850 with Epsonscan vs. a pro scanned Howtek 8000 drum scanner. The results are very comparable. Interestingly, I found I could sharpen the 2400 scan better than the 4800 for some reason. You can see the comparison of scans here.
https://www.largeformatphotography....-Epson-V850-flatbed-scanners&highlight=howtek
 
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for example you have the sky, or water bodies, or buildings... if you don't manipulate much the curve you won't have problems in 8 bits, but there is no doubt that high contrast scenes needding a deep edition require 16bits

Also... sharpening algorithms are to work much worse in the deep shadows, if deep shadows are enconded 1 to 16 levels, for example, operations are truncated delivering way less precision, if later you expand those shadows.

A proficient edition is in 16bits, still 8bits can be totally acceptable in many situations, this is also true.
Why take a chance with 8 bits when 16 bits is available? There's no downside with 16 bits other than more storage space. On the upside you have more to play with.
 

Les Sarile

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Epson claims that the lens on the V850 is better than the V700/V750. That accounts for the faster speed, so they say.
Scan times were halved when the Coolscan 4000 was updated to the 5000. The scan times were also halved between the first version Minolta 5400 first to the second version. In both cases, one of the major changes was changing the light source from cold cathode to LED. I would guess that since the scan times were also halved between V7XX and the V8XX that it must have also been because of the change from cold cathode to LED light source or at least significantly because of it.
 

Les Sarile

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As someone who scans 7 days a week for clients I can tell you I spend NO time thinking about MTF charts.

At the rates you charge, I can see why you have no time. You are too cheap! I've done a few scans for pay and there is no way I would do it for that.

To your point - at least as far as scanner resolution is concerned, all is already known. However, there are always new people who needs their film scanned and as always it starts at how much would it cost in time and money. It's their time and money - and their cherished images, so I can appreciate why they would find the best they can get.
 

138S

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To your point - at least as far as scanner resolution is concerned, all is already known. However, there are always new people who needs their film scanned and as always it starts at how much would it cost in time and money. It's their time and money - and their cherished images, so I can appreciate why they would find the best they can get.

Yes, we have many tests and resolving power is well known...

But IMO we have several addtional factors. A critical factor is skills, results in the hybrid workflow are more related to skills than to the digital gear. A proficient scanning, a careful edition and a solid aesthetic criterion for the edition it is what it shines.

Then another not always well understood factor is when a better scanning performance makes a difference o not. Many times scanner performance is overrated and skills overlooked.

In fact, this happens in other photography areas. For example Sally Mann departs from wooden camera, raw chem, glass sheets... no problem with a lens not covering well the format or with a crack in the midle. Eye meter. Head VR. Organic shutter. Still her last exhibition has the most impressive prints many have seen on a wall. This is about skills, mastering the own tools... and being a true artist if possible.

 

Les Sarile

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But IMO we have several addtional factors. A critical factor is skills, results in the hybrid workflow are more related to skills than to the digital gear. A proficient scanning, a careful edition and a solid aesthetic criterion for the edition it is what it shines.

Are you still talking about scanner resolution here . . .
 

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Many people having an Epson V700 don't know what that machine is able, because not having adjusted media height or ensured flatness, or not knowing how to make the refined sharpening Epson scans require in post, to obtain the best result while totally avoiding overshot.




Les, see the table at the bottom, and you'll see that that test is not that arbitrary, but a good example of the reality.

Since many years ago RA-4 darkroom printing has been declared near extinct, almost nobody prints RA-4 optically. Priority has been scanning since the digital minilab era in the 1990s. What % of the RA-4 prints are optic? one in one million?

If you observe color negatives of the pre digital minilab era with a microscope, at (say) x400 you may see that the image structure (color clouds) changed compared to color negative film made in the digital minilab era.

See this table:

View attachment 253167

Reference: http://www.tmax100.com/photo/pdf/film.pdf

These are results from contact copies. Amazingly the 40 years old VR100 (The kodak product that introduced T-Grain in around 1980) has the best rating of the color films, but it had some grain and more color noise in the scanning. If you make clouds larger then clouds from a color layer overlap better with clouds in the other layers, lowering color noise in the discretization.

There always had been a trade between size of color clouds vs granularity, a film that scans easy may require larger color clouds, at the end lost sharpness can be compensated with a wise digital sharpening. Of course a detailed analysis should consider what average cloud size we have for each density in each layer, measured in the reticle of a microscope... but to compare it's enough to inspect at x400 how gray subjects with same density (concrete buildings, for example) have the clouds overlaping less or more.

In the other hand that contact test suggests a resolution value in ppi, this is 3300 to 3700 for the old Portra variants, but those are tests from contact copies, those figures have to be lowered for practical shooting conditions, the same document calculates the actual ppi once the lens performance has degradated the image, note that Portra 160 was peaking 2450 with a very good 140 lp/mm lens:


View attachment 253169


This fully explains why an Epson V700 is able to get all IQ Portra 160 is able to record, as it is able to resolve 2900dpi effective in the Hor axis and 2300 in the vertical one.


I guess this table is a precise answer to what OP was asking.


Then you might also be interested in articles posted at https://clarkvision.com/articles/index.html

A good reference between film and digital with a lot of studies related to resolution.


There are several things that are highly problematic with those articles.

First of all, it's important to take the meta perspective and remember in what kind of air and time these two texts where written.

Digital had taken most photographically interested and involved people by surprise, with the rapidity, with which it was suddenly replacing film as the image capture medium of choice.

Therefore you had the choice of either appearing to be a luddite, behind the times, desperately clinging to the old "paradigm".

Or go full on with the "new stuff", while still appearing to make a "mature carefully judged and weighted decisions of when and how".

Furthermore:

There was (and still is) also a lot of confusing the then still steadily marching Moores Law with equal development in sensor technology.

Moore’s Law is the main driving force behind all the personal computer technology we have seen advancing rapidly since the seventies (some would argue it’s the only driving force).

Improvements in CMOS and CCD has very little to do with Moores Law however.

In fact the actual sensors have only seen quite small incremental improvements in the basic technology and material science and QE in the last fifteen or twenty years.

The main improvements being in much better post processing and some minor improvements in amplification strategy.

Thirdly, most of the scanners of "back then" was made to scan to computers that had smaller resolution displays (megapixel monitors mostly over narrowband internet), less RAM and less need for resolution in general.

High resolution prints was something for professionals, "fanatics", and large colour prints was still possible with darkroom RA4 if you really needed it (still is if you are dedicated, or know where to go).

Clarke has a few examples from a drum scanner. But we know nothing of it’s calibration or other circumstances concerning the scanning.

With that out of the way, the articles themselves are technically and semantically dubious in a number of ways.

There is much weasel wording and handwaving, where the authors think they can get away with it.

There are no concise parts part about method, or any rigorous references to other works or sources to speak of.

These are not scientific or academic peer reviewable articles (and they don't purport to be), though I guess for many people they give off an academic air, that impresses and appears to have special authority, due to the authors clearly being used to writing academic papers.

Tim Vitales article while interesting in a number of ways, appears to be mostly a scrape of other papers and articles, with little work done by the author himself.
Tim Vitale is a conservator who specialises in photos. That does not tell us much about his technical authority.

Clarkes article has a number of gross inaccuracies, omissions, lack of clarity, forces conclusions and frankly seems biased (perhaps for the reasons I mentioned to begin with).

That wouldn’t be such a problem if the two articles weren’t among the first that pops up with a google search, and if they didn’t still get cited time and time again.


There have been several examples or hints at just how much resolution is in a square inch/mm of film in the intervening fifteen years.

Here is a two examples;

Tim Parkins tests are pretty famous. Here is one of the more interesting images from one of them (in this context) from his, “film against a Phase One 80MP back”, test.

Don’t pay any mind to the changes in film size between examples, as long as you compare the same size against itself, you are good.

The emulsion is if not exactly the same then much the same between 135 and 8x10.
What matters is the dpi of the scan and the magnification.

Notice how close Portra 400 and Tmax 100 really is in the Mamiya 7 microscope crops (while the structure certainly looks different).
Also notice the jump from 4000dpi to 8000dpi, and how much is still left to resolve in the microscope examples from the same piece of film:
5545E156-BDEB-4D0D-912E-9294A1D13624.jpeg


Here is a another good example of how much resolution it is possible to get out of film, and this not even with optimal equipment.
IE “only” a 5400 dpi scanner and less than optimal film to show resolution:

B2E71A30-E469-4249-8CC9-0A8C16EA45C5.jpeg
C3DBF9A6-6AC4-493B-AB3E-61099C67EFEF.jpeg

http://www.rokkorfiles.com/7SII.htm
Notice how you can see the individual minute marks on the clock face!

This is far, far from the 2600dpi claimed by 138S and authors of the articles as the practical limit for colour film.
 
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Lachlan Young

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Are you still talking about scanner resolution here . . .

Unfortunately Les, yes. There is a persistent issue around his understanding the basic optical principle that lots of unsharp pixels are drastically poorer at communicating sharpness information from a piece of film than fewer, sharper pixels - and then piling mounds of obsessive, Googled nonsense about 'fixing it in post' around it to try and hide a very fundamental lack of knowledge from either theory or practice.
 
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At the rates you charge, I can see why you have no time. You are too cheap! I've done a few scans for pay and there is no way I would do it for that.

To your point - at least as far as scanner resolution is concerned, all is already known. However, there are always new people who needs their film scanned and as always it starts at how much would it cost in time and money. It's their time and money - and their cherished images, so I can appreciate why they would find the best they can get.

Hah! I'm less expensive than the big labs (RPL, Indie, FIND), and every so slightly less (and sometimes more) expensive than other small-medium operations (State Film Lab, Boutique, AGX, Coastal). It's a competitive marketplace, and my overhead is low so I can compete on price possibly more easily than some others.

More importantly, I've embraced some new scanning tech in large format so that I can produce 50 or 100mp scans of sheet film quickly and easily.

If film services are so expensive that amateurs and artists cannot afford to use it, then what is the point?
 

PhilBurton

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We certainly get what we pay specially when it comes to system wide resolution . . . :wink:

So, as members of this thread, what can we agree on? Where are the points of disagreement? Why? Is there any non-emotional way to resolve these disagreements?

Phil Burton
 

138S

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Here is a another good example of how much resolution it is possible to get out of film, and this not even with optimal equipment.
IE “only” a 5400 dpi scanner and less than optimal film to show resolution:

View attachment 253272 View attachment 253273
http://www.rokkorfiles.com/7SII.htm
Notice how you can see the individual minute marks on the clock face!

This is far, far from the 2600dpi claimed by 138S and authors of the articles as the practical limit for colour film.

Helge, this crop is made at 5300dpi, yes, but the 100% crop is quite blurred and probably you have no more than the half (2600dpi) effective.

I'm totally confident that the Epson would be able to catch all IQ that this negative has if scanning 4800 or 6400 to also yield around 2600 effective.
 

138S

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So, as members of this thread, what can we agree on? Where are the points of disagreement? Why? Is there any non-emotional way to resolve these disagreements?

Phil Burton

The question is when a high end Pro scanner makes a difference or not for a certain job compared to a prosumer machine.

My view is that it's quite interesting for the community to know that, most of the times the scanner is not the weak link in the chain, because film capabilty in practial/real photography is usually the limiting factor: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-vs-scanning-resolution.177544/page-2#post-2313677

IMO, when a serious test is made we see that the critical important factor is proficiency in the scanning and in the edition, and only some particular situations we may have a benefit from using a high end machine.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/film-vs-scanning-resolution.177544/#post-2313390

Others say that the superior machine always delivers superior images, IMO what delivers superior images is the machine operator/editor, sporting a refined workflow for the edition and enjoying an solid aesthetic criterion to know what to do with the image.
 

MattKing

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So, as members of this thread, what can we agree on? Where are the points of disagreement? Why? Is there any non-emotional way to resolve these disagreements?

Phil Burton
Because the thread is about Satan's spawn - scanning!!!:wink:
 

SCHWARZZEIT

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Helge, this crop is made at 5300dpi, yes, but the 100% crop is quite blurred and probably you have no more than the half (2600dpi) effective.

I'm totally confident that the Epson would be able to catch all IQ that this negative has if scanning 4800 or 6400 to also yield around 2600 effective.
A simple test to check the effective level of detail of an image file is to downsize it (e.g. in Photoshop) to see at which resolution the image loses image content details. You can download that crop, load it into Photoshop, set the resolution to 5400 ppi (without resizing) and then resize to lower resolutions. Resizing the scaled down image back to the original resolution and adding appropriate sharpness will help seeing which details can be retained and which are lost in the process.

That crop started to lose detail already when resized to 4000 ppi and the other crop on the website Helge linked to had more than 4400 ppi worth of detail. Thus, the level of detail of the original negative has been at least 80-90 lp/mm for those higher contrast structures. Downsizing to 2600 ppi will make a blurry mess out of it.

The resolving power of most films is much higher than you think. Don’t trust the calculated resolution figures in Tim Vitale's document that you quoted. His calculations are fundamentally flawed. A much better source are the film resolution test results of Henning Serger. JP Buffington picked up some of Henning’s posts on photrio in his blog: http://jpbuffington.com/?p=167

Henning published additional results in other forums as well. Having personally checked a few of his test films under the microscope at 100x magnification I can confirm the credibility of his results. When I did my own tests in 2008 and 2009 the results were very similar. As these are real world tests of system resolution, Henning’s results can be taken as a reference on the potential resolving power of the emulsions he tested. While he used very good taking lenses (Zeiss Makro-Planar 2/50 and Nikkor 1.8/50 AI-S) for his tests these lenses are not the cutting edge by today’s standards. More recent introductions of new lens designs will probably yield even higher resolution from 35mm film.
 
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138S

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A simple test to check the effective level of detail of an image file is to downsize it (e.g. in Photoshop) to see at which resolution the image loses image content details. You can download that crop, load it into Photoshop, set the resolution to 5300 ppi (without resizing) and then resize to lower resolutions. Resizing the scaled down image back to the original resolution and adding appropriate sharpness will help seeing which details can be retained and which are lost in the process.

I did it...

But to conserve the 2600 effective you cannot downsize it to 2600, you have to add a safety margin related to rayleight/nyquist/shannon/etc criterion.

If you take the original crop and you make a super pixel peeping (of the clock) in Ps you will find that an edge takes around some 4 pixels to make the transition, this suggests that the actual effective performance is less than 1/2 of the scanned resolution, so 2600 or less, by no means it is 4000.

See here the edges in the clock:

SP32-20200826-235240.jpg
 
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