Developer for Aviphot Pan 200

[Alan Johnson]

I compared Aviphot 200 @ EI =200:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51803987259/in/dateposted-public/
with Delta 100 @ EI =200
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51803630296/in/dateposted-public/
both developed in MeCD4 as per post 141 and electronically processed identically.
Aviphot 200 was more contrasty, although of course it is easy to alter the contrast if wanted.
Delta 100 @ EI =200 has finer grain and higher resolution and could probably be pushed more.
To get higher resolution from aerial films Aviphot 80 or variants would be required.

 

[Murray Kelly]

Seems to be a universal developer.
With less sulphite it might even work as a C-41 substitute!

 

[Alan Johnson]

MeCD4 flattens curves, not quite enough for CMS 20 and too much for Delta 100, OK for curves in between.
Easier to correct its deficiencies electronically than by silver gelatin printing , it may serve as a universal push developer for that case.

 

[Alan Johnson]

A small quantity of 35mm Tasma 25L in cassettes reached the UK. An aerial survey film, it has very good resolution of fine detail and granularity.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51808731020/in/dateposted-public/

 

[greg zinselmeier]

Besides Agfa, does any other company sell Aerial film in rolls of 24cm x 76m?

 

[Romanko]

Besides Agfa, does any other company sell Aerial film in rolls of 24cm x 76m?

Tasma in Russia apparently produces aerial film type 42L in large rolls (19cm х60m and 32cmх60m):
https://tasma.ru/en/products/fotoplenki-i-plenki-spetsialnogo-naznacheniya/aerofotoplenka-tip-42l/
Their website mentions that type 25L can be produced in sizes other than standard 35mm x 300m rolls (yes, this is 300 meter roll).
I am not sure what is involved in ordering film from Russia but it seems to be available locally as there's an active VK community of Tasma film users:
https://vk.com/tasmaphoto
There are some discussions and examples on the VK page (obviously in Russian). One of the posts mentions a developer that uses CD-1 and Glycin.
I also saw a picture of type 25L film in 120 format.

There is also Slavich in Russia that has two types of aerial film in rolls of 13, 19, 32, 42 and 43 cm width and 60 m length:
http://slavich.ru/?id=66

Anyone from Russia here?

 

[greg zinselmeier]

thanks romanko,

I am not russian but I am going to start looking into this.

Living in the States, I have had problems in the past with getting paper or film from Slavich, ( you need a distributor to buy from). I just could not order "on line" and pay for S&H and so on. I will see if I can find anyone left who buys from Slavich In the USA.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Some time ago Rudeofus mentioned to me an interest in adding a color coupler to a single bath developer and I have applied it to the two bath MeCD4.
The idea was based on a paper by LFA Mason [post 141] and attached is my copy of part of a graph in his paper, showing a notable increase in the density of the silver image when a color coupler was added to a metol - color developer mix.
He did check that the increase was not due to an interaction between the color developer and color coupler.
This will comprise the theory part of this experiment.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

Well, I’m interested to see how your experiments proceed. Let us know what happens! Best wishes GZ

 

[Helge]

Tasma in Russia apparently produces aerial film type 42L in large rolls (19cm х60m and 32cmх60m):
https://tasma.ru/en/products/fotoplenki-i-plenki-spetsialnogo-naznacheniya/aerofotoplenka-tip-42l/
Their website mentions that type 25L can be produced in sizes other than standard 35mm x 300m rolls (yes, this is 300 meter roll).
I am not sure what is involved in ordering film from Russia but it seems to be available locally as there's an active VK community of Tasma film users:
https://vk.com/tasmaphoto
There are some discussions and examples on the VK page (obviously in Russian). One of the posts mentions a developer that uses CD-1 and Glycin.
I also saw a picture of type 25L film in 120 format.

There is also Slavich in Russia that has two types of aerial film in rolls of 13, 19, 32, 42 and 43 cm width and 60 m length:
http://slavich.ru/?id=66

Anyone from Russia here?

Google translate:

https://tasma-ru.translate.goog/en/..._sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=da&_x_tr_pto=wapp

https://m-vk-com.translate.goog/tasmaphoto?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=da&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Looks like an interesting film.
Is that an original 120 banderole sticker around the foil wrapped roll? Would indicate availability of at least official paperbacked film.

 

[Romanko]

Is that an original 120 banderole sticker around the foil wrapped roll? Would indicate availability of at least official paperbacked film.

I doubt that. This looks like a small community of Tasma film users that manually respool film when they get enough orders to get a bulk roll from the manufacturer. They would be lucky if Tasma cut the film for them into medium format width so that they don't have to manually slice it from 8 cm roll.
In any case, for 4 Euro per 120 type roll this does sound very interesting. I am almost tempted to join their VK community and contact the seller.

I found an online shop that sells it for under 8 USD. International delivery from Moscow is 25 USD. Not sure if it's worth the trouble but here it is:
https://wonderfoto.ru/en/katalog/fotoplenka/120mm-0/cherno-belaya-1/tasma-120/

 

[Helge]

Seems someone is trying something:
https://instagram.com/photoplenka_tasma?utm_medium=copy_link

 

[Romanko]

Seems someone is trying something:
https://instagram.com/photoplenka_tasma?utm_medium=copy_link

Thank you for sharing the link. To me it looks like they tried it already and started using it for real.
I like the tonality they get from this film. I wonder what developers they use.
I found a supplier of Tasma in Australia though only in 35 mm format:
https://decisivemoment.com.au/tasma-type-42-iso400-35mm-film-sfl/
The film is packaged by different folks (Sreda Photography Labs) but it is the same Tasma Type 42.

 

[Alan Johnson]

Noting this developer MeCD4 works for aerial films and copex rapid microfilm, here are the results of adding a color coupler.
MeCD4 part A [post 141] was prepared and 20g/L of the color coupler resorcinol added. By pH paper there appeared a hardly detectable reduction in pH.
This developer with added resorcinol is denoted by MeCD4R.
The attachments show results from Aviphot 80 developed in MeCD4 and in MeCD4R.
(1) Negatives from MeCD4R appear somewhat more dense.
(2) Inkjet prints from MeCD4R show lighter color of the dark greys on the print, eg the grass.
(3) Histograms from the scanner show less in the shadow area of the print.
Conclusion- This first test suggests that addition of color coupler increases the density of the negatives as predicted from Mason's results. Here is MeCD4R with Copex Rapid @ EI= 100:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51850623389/in/dateposted-public/

Thanks to Rudeofus who investigated several color couplers for permission to disclose them, including resorcinol.
At present resorcinol is favoured for availability and cost, the full story is most interesting.
Resorcinol is limited to 0.5% in shampoos and hair dyes, I wash MeCD4R off my hands like other developers.

 

[relistan]

Interesting experiment, Alan! If I'm reading that right it seems to add density in areas that already had density but has very little effect at either end?

 

[Alan Johnson]

From this first test it does appear that MeCD4R version gives a less contrasty print. This seems to be supported from the tones being more uniformly spread out in the histogram.
I have not made a test to see if there is any change in the effective EI but as you indicate there is not much sign of it in the results so far. It would depend on the effect of the color coupler.

 

[Alan Johnson]

I repeated the scans from the negatives of the identical scene developed in MeCD4 and, with the color coupler added, MeCD4R. (attachments)
The scanner left on auto reports these as "after image optimisation", I assume these histograms represent the distribution of tones to be output.
IMO, with MeCD4 there is a lot of tone on the LHS, ie the low density part of the negative, and a lot of tone on the RHS, high density on the negative, and not much in the middle.
The D-log E curve would probably be S-shaped.
With color coupler added, MeCD4R, the tones are more evenly distributed.
The D-log E curve would probably be closer to a straight line.
So addition of color coupler flattens the S-curve and should give better pictorial results from aerial films and from microfilms.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

the questions I have. . . . does the color coupler add speed? A.k.a. more shadow detail. assuming developing from the same formula/time/temp, of course with the addition of the color coupler.

second question, since adding the color coupler, does the highlights develope more dense with the same time/temp.?

if the color coupler added to the developer gains more shadow detail ( get more speed), how does that effect time and temp.? possible to adjust for highlight density?. as we all are looking for a straight line that is printable. so densities need to be in a range of 1.1.-1.3. Can this be achieved ?

 

[Alan Johnson]

(1) The color coupler does appear to add speed, with it the shadows appear lighter, see the attachments showing scans taken from a dark area of the scene with negatives developed without LHS and with RHS color coupler.
(2) Yes, I can clearly see this holding the negatives up to a light, with color coupler is more dense in the highlights.
(3) The effect of time is illustrated by your results with Aviphot 200 3m and 6m 25C shown in the graph post 173, very likely true with added color coupler too. You already got a density of 1.4 at 6min . The highlights do appear slightly more spread out in the attachment for MeCD4R ,post 192 but it is not possible to say if this would give sufficient flattening of the curve for your purpose.
(4) I use the Ilford chart to correct for temperature, development is either controlled by chemical reaction or diffusion and the rates of both increase with temperature.

 

[Bronson Dugnutt]

Interesting results; adding resorcinol seems like it might provide a staining action like that found in pyrogallol developers?

Dye cloud formation from the color coupler can be evaluated by blixing the negative and looking for a residual image or other staining on the emulsion after the silver has been removed.

 

[bluechromis]

Hennings Serger said that Aviphot 200 based films are problematic because of severe "S" shaped curve, i.e., overly contrasty for pictorial work. Adox has done some interesting things to mitigate the problems of ariel films for pictorial use with their HR-50 and "speed boost" as well as the special HR-50 developer. In my use with the HR-50 and the dedicated developer, I have been impressed that it does seem to do what they claim and moderate the extreme S curve. This makes me wonder if what's good for the gander is also good for goose: would the Maco IR 400 (etc.) films also benefit from the HR-50 developer? Another way of thinking about this: Hennings has suggested that the true usable EI of the Maco IR 400 family of emulsions is not even 100, but less maybe 80 or less? Adox claims that a true film speed of 50 can be attained with HR-50 and a special developer. My experience has been that that is not wildly wrong. I say wild wildly wrong in the sense that MACO markets Aviphot 200 as a 400 speed film which patently is wildly wrong. If one looks at it from this perspective the usable EI of the modified Adox Aviphot 80 and the MACO branded Aviphot 200 is not that different. But the Adox film has a remarkably fine grain, whereas Hennings has said the grain of the MACO films for sub-100 speed is crappy. You have to ask the question, what if the point of using the Aviphot 200 emulsions, at least for 35 mm? Now if Adox would apply their juju to Aviphot 200 ...

 

[Alan Johnson]

Adox HR-50 developer and Spur TRX 2000 have the same msds. Rollei Superpan 200 is reported to be Aviphot 200.
Rollei Superpan =Aviphot 200 has a claimed EI of 80 in Spur TRX 2000=Adox HR-50:
https://spur-photo.com/wp-content/uploads/Data-sheet-SPUR-TRX-2000-07.08.19-1.pdf

 

[bluechromis]

Adox HR-50 developer and Spur TRX 2000 have the same msds. Rollei Superpan 200 is reported to be Aviphot 200.
Rollei Superpan =Aviphot 200 has a claimed EI of 80 in Spur TRX 2000=Adox HR-50:
https://spur-photo.com/wp-content/uploads/Data-sheet-SPUR-TRX-2000-07.08.19-1.pdf

Good to know.

 

[greg zinselmeier]

the purpose of using aviphot 200 for me ???? I can buy a roll of 24cm x 75m ( about 300 sheets of 8x10 or 4x for 4x5) for about 900 USD. thats about 3 dollars a sheet of 8x10 ! thats cheap. I use to be able to buy it for 600USD. ( inflation) !!!! in terms of what that film can do???? if you have a low contrast sceen . . ... . it works great,excellent adjency effect when developed correctly. If you are planning on going out with snow on the ground with blinding light. ( sunny , not a cloud in the sky) . .. .. . . NOT SO GOOD!!!! people pick and choose film "on a hunch" of what they "like", "tend toward". Many of use who use Ariel film like contrast ( albeit with a "taming effect" that the photographer/developer has to inpose) but when it used well, with the right image. its very nice. It prints well on grade 2 paper. you can develope to . . .anywhere from 0.0- to 2.2 !!!. excellent for alt. processing. like salt prints and even carbon, or platinum.

by the way who is Hennings Serger??? and who gives a crap what he(she) thinks!!! go out and do your own research and find what you like, and make artwork with the materials you enjoy working with, and the results you are getting. dont listen to anybody else.

 

[Alan Johnson]

In his own words:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...ros-ii-test-report.176672/page-4#post-2302961
IMO among other things his data on film resolution is the best now available on here but you have to search for it.