Developer for Aviphot Pan 200

greg zinselmeier · Dec 4, 2021

Allen, is 25 Celcius the preferred temp for CD-4? or is there any variation? allowing for time ( +/-) @ a lower Temp.? or does CD-4 not work well below 77F?

I wonder what the B+F is? with your Developer from Post 141. . ... Also I noticed there is no restrainer, no KBr. por que?

Today I bought from Art Craft my CD-4, mid month I can get up and going, hopefully?

Also Are you only interested in a two bath system? Like a "berry Thorton" ?

Alan Johnson · Dec 4, 2021

Hello Greg, I have found that the developer works well between 20C [5min] - 25C [3min] using the chart "Processing at different temperatures" published by Ilford though I have not used this developer with any Ilford films.
https://www.ilfordphoto.com/amfile/file/download/file/1905/product/700/
I think all the films I tested have thin emulsions with a low FB + fog so have not added any restrainer.

So far I have used only 2 bath developers. It is known that Diafine, Emofin gave a speed increase so I used a similar bath B to try to get this.
My formula MeCD450 is related to the old Emofin technology but applied to microfilm/aerofilm types. It is possible that it could be re-worked as a single bath [ Emofin was], I have not tried it.

greg zinselmeier · Dec 5, 2021

Allen, More questions.

In Darkroom cookbook and Film developing cookbook,( i can get you those pages next time around) The books suggests ( generally speaking about 2 bath developers) that Solution A can be reused if a 20% sodium bisulfite ( preservative)- It Already it has Sodium Metabisulfite as a preservative) is used in a two bath developer- Solution A only . Have you reused Solution A ? I understand from reading that 1.5 ml is used for 80 sq.in. of film ( absorption only, excluding droplets on reels). Generally speaking, in 2 bath developers ( Solution A) can be used for up to 20 rolls. Other places suggest 7-8 rolls. IT IS ALWAYS the case that solution B is made fresh, used, and dumped.

Does CD-4 have any staining qualities like Catechol?

I wonder about superadditve qualities with Phenidone or demizone-S with CD-4 ? Of course omitting and substitution of Metol)

I'm not quite sure why Sodium Sulfite is added to Solution B? I am assuming as a perservative??) is also my understanding that CD-4 is a solvent, and the small amount of sodium sulfite doesn't seem alot to do that job at only 35g per Liter. MY novice understanding is something like 100 g per liter would start acting like a solvent, any way. . . . . ..

any other notes and/or readings you can send me, so that I can gather to do some more research would be greatly appreciated. you have interested piqued ( interested with this cd-4 business.

Alan Johnson · Dec 6, 2021

Hello Greg, I re-use both baths, as did Barry Thornton:
http://sannyassa.co.uk/barry-thorntons-writings/
The 35g/L sulfite in bath B was copied from the "formula" of Emofin I recorded:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/microdol-x-replacement.46346/page-7#post-669457
It may help the development by uncovering latent image specks. My bath B gives a notable increase in density compared to Thornton's Metaborate only bath.
From post 151 I have now increased the sulfite content of the B bath to 50g/L and given the new formula the name MeCD450.Otherwise it is the same as in post 141.
I don't use phenidone because as mentioned early on in this thread it caused streaking with these aerofilms, metol does not.
I don't notice any stain from the CD-4 on the negatives developed.
I will pm you the paper by LFA Mason later.

Foto Ludens · Dec 6, 2021

Alan Johnson said:
I don't use phenidone because as mentioned early on in this thread it caused streaking with these aerofilms, metol does not.

Interesting! 510-Pyro uses phenidone as one of its developers, and I've noticed no streaks in Aviphot 80 or 200. Perhaps it's not the phenidone itself, but it's interactions with other chemicals in the formulas you tested?

Alan Johnson · Dec 6, 2021

This is discussed at length in The Film Developing Cookbook 2020 p 130-133. It seems to be related to phenidone not being well preserved in sulfite and there are numerous ways round it.

greg zinselmeier · Dec 6, 2021

thanks allen. good stuff.

also have you tried fx-1 or fx-2 with aviphot? I understand for roll film users where enlargement is required "Fine grain " developers are first sought out. "I get it!!" But HD developers are pretty interesting too. anyway. . . . I do not care which one i use. Is long as I can get better tonal seperation from zone 7-12 with AVIphot 200 ( superpan 200) !!!!!!!!!! this is for long tonal range POP, ALT printing ( aka salt and the like). I primarilary use 4x5 or 8x10 conmtact work.

Alan Johnson · Dec 7, 2021

I have not tried FX-1 or FX-2 with Aviphot as I once tried FX-1 with a microfilm and obtained somewhat grainy results with 35mm.But as you say they might be good for large format.
Emofin was extensively recommended in the 1938 book "Leica Technik" by Curt Emmermann. After that it disappeared from text books, presumably because nobody knew what the formula was. In The Film Developing Cookbook 2020 p134 it is noted low contrast developers based on ppd derivatives are worth research as low contrast developers. So that is what I am keeping to.

greg zinselmeier · Dec 7, 2021

ok. got it.

Alan Johnson · Dec 9, 2021

Continuing the diversion to Agfa Copex Rapid, microfilm type, EI =80,OK in MeCD450, it can be seen that on a computer screen at magnification , the fine detail is well resolved, similar to CMS-20, and the grain is quite small
It may be OK for big enlargements.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51735402761/in/dateposted-public/

Rollei Retro 80s [Aviphot 80], EI =80 shows some grain on a computer screen at magnification:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51736288360/in/dateposted-public/
However, on 2 10x enlarged prints I made, the Aviphot looks sharper, the eye finds edges on the Aviphot grain and nothing on the microfilm grain at this degree of enlargement.
See, eg "Edge of Darkness" Barry Thornton , Ch 6 for a discussion of perceived sharpness vs grain size on prints.

Nokton48 · Dec 9, 2021

My 9x12cm Aviphot 200 is about to land at my place. Hopefully no trimming required I am set up to cut in the dark. And minimal or no scratches please. Good in my European film holders

Would you Guys recommend getting some CD4; For 70mm Aviphot 200 I have used only Rollei Supergrain which was recommended by Agfa. Any other good choices? I can mix from bulk chemicals

Alan Johnson · Dec 9, 2021

I don't have any experience of the HQMS technology for this film [used by Spur] but it has been extensively tested unlike the CD4 formulation which is still under investigation.

abruzzi · Dec 9, 2021

Nokton48 said:
My 9x12cm Aviphot 200 is about to land at my place. Hopefully no trimming required I am set up to cut in the dark. And minimal or no scratches please. Good in my European film holders

Sounds like it took a while to ship, or did you just buy it recently? I'm really curious about the quality because the seller has it in 8x10 sheets, and "Rollie Infrared" is only available up to 4x5. (I'd love to shoot it as infrared in 8x10.)

Nokton48 · Dec 10, 2021

abruzzi said:
Sounds like it took a while to ship, or did you just buy it recently? I'm really curious about the quality because the seller has it in 8x10 sheets, and "Rollie Infrared" is only available up to 4x5. (I'd love to shoot it as infrared in 8x10.)

I ordered on October 29th 2021. It is now in the USA but still traveling. I'll report when I get it.

Yesterday I ordered some CD4 and Sodium Metabisulphite from Artcraft. The other chemicals to make MeCD4 I have in house.

abruzzi · Dec 10, 2021

I forgot the seller is in Russia, and my experience is Russian Post to US post can be a bit slow, but generally reliable. Nothing like EMS from Japan which gets to me quicker than UPS from KEH sometimes.

Alan Johnson · Dec 11, 2021

Aviphot 200 believed = Rollei Superpan 200.
H&D curve @ EI 200 in D-76 shows S-shape.
Prints at EI= 125.

Nokton48 · Dec 11, 2021

Agfa Avipan 9x12 102 sheets from Russia 1 by Nokton48, on Flickr

Agfa Avipan 4x5 Neg supplied fits Lisco Holder OK by Nokton48, on Flickr

Got a package today from Russia, 102 sheets of 9x12cm Agfa Aviphot Aerial Film. I have been shooting this in 70mm long rolls and like it; want to shoot it in large format also. The prints and test negative were in the package. I tried the 4x5 negative in a 4x5 Lisco Film Holder and it is a bit smaller nominally, but fits tightly in the holder once all the way in. I believe it would be ok but the film is coated on a thin aerial film base. I have some spring loaded Linhof holders in 9x12cm that might work well with this film?

I am planning to try MeCD4 and have ordered CD4 Color Developer and Sodium Metabisulphite from Artcraft Chemicals. I have used and like Rollei Supergrain which Freestyle sells fresh

Nokton48 · Dec 13, 2021

I opened the lighttight package and loaded up two old Sinar Norma 9x12cm holders successfully. Enough to make a film run in my old Unicolor Grey 8x10 Unidrum, which I modified to fit four 9x12cm sheets. This is indeed very thin aerial film quite flimsy. It seems to want to curl naturally so I hope I have established the emulsion side. Most sheets I tried seem to fit OK and tightly into the Norma holders; a couple did not, (too wide) so may need some trimming. I moved the pile into an old Kodak 4x5 Hold Box and relabeled the box.

If this works well I may spring for some in 18x24cm and 8x10.

abruzzi · Dec 13, 2021

I've shot the Rollei IR in 4x5 and the film was very thin. I partly suspect that the reason they don't sell it in 8x10 was fear of sagging. Nonetheless, I really enjoy the film as a IR film (though I'd prefer sheets of HIE...) so I may splurge for some 8x10 from this Russian seller.

destroya · Dec 13, 2021

I also tried the IR as well as the rpx 25, which is the same as the retro 80s, in 4x5. yeh its thin. I always am afraid that i loaded 2 sheets by mistake. and I have issues with the mod 54 as the sheets like to come out of their slots being so thin. but the results are great when everything works as it should

greg zinselmeier · Dec 29, 2021

hello,

I just wanted to update on my research. This is what i have so far.

for developing 80 sq. in. (4@4x5) of Aviphot 200 film in 1 liter of water. I photographed a Stouffer 12 step opaque gray scale, shot 1:1 on my 4x5 Sinar with a Rodenstock N 150mm. I allowed for the added 2 stops for bellows extention. I rated the Film @ 100 ASA BEFORE allowing for bellows extentions). More research needs to be done, but FOR PEOPLE WHO PRINT ON SILVER GELATIN this will get you close. For the moment I am stopping the reasearch, I would like to finish some art projects that are more pressing, However, on the whole, CD-4 does look promising in regards to straightening out the curve. Although I do not like the amount of Dichrotic fog I am getting for densities that match silver printing. that is a C.I. of 1.3.

The Formula I used is for a "1 shot" deal. NOT A DIVIDED COMPENSATION

water@ 150 F 300ml
Sodium sulfite 30 g
Metol 1g
CD-4 1g
BZT .1g
Borax 1g
Sodium Hydroxide 2g
water to make 1 liter

instructions. Heat water, add a pinch of sulfite, add metol, then all of Sulfite,CD-4, and Borax. then add 10 ml of a 10ml of a 10% solution of Benzotriozle/borax solution. (2 g of BZT and 2 g Borax in 200 ml of water). add very cold water to say 600 ml, then add Sodium Hydroxide, add water to 1 liter @68 F.
Devlope for 13 minutes. After pour is complete, aggitate for the first minute- 2 inversions every 5 seconds. there after 2 inversions every 5 seconds for each additional minute that passes. stop/fix as usual. etc.c.. . . .

B+F .35, Z_I-.56, Z_II-.71, Z_III-.82, Z_IV-.95, Z_V-1.13, Z_VI-1.27, Z_VII-1.48, Z_VIII-1.65, Z_IX-1.83, Z_X-1.97

As you can see these are dense negatives. I have not found a good formula Between the Alkaline and the restrainer so as not to inhibit development of highlights but not to develope the unexposed. Maybe Carbonate will be the trick?? IDK

this may work for Alt printing, salt prints. maybe if you reduced time to 10 minutes?

thanks.

Nokton48 · Dec 29, 2021

greg zinselmeier said:
hello,

I just wanted to update on my research. This is what i have so far.

for developing 80 sq. in. (4@4x5) of Aviphot 200 film in 1 liter of water. I photographed a Stouffer 12 step opaque gray scale, shot 1:1 on my 4x5 Sinar with a Rodenstock N 150mm. I allowed for the added 2 stops for bellows extention. I rated the Film @ 100 ASA BEFORE allowing for bellows extentions). More research needs to be done, but FOR PEOPLE WHO PRINT ON SILVER GELATIN this will get you close. For the moment I am stopping the reasearch, I would like to finish some art projects that are more pressing, However, on the whole, CD-4 does look promising in regards to straightening out the curve. Although I do not like the amount of Dichrotic fog I am getting for densities that match silver printing. that is a C.I. of 1.3.

The Formula I used is for a "1 shot" deal. NOT A DIVIDED COMPENSATION

water@ 150 F 300ml
Sodium sulfite 30 g
Metol 1g
CD-4 1g
BZT .1g
Borax 1g
Sodium Hydroxide 2g
water to make 1 liter

instructions. Heat water, add a pinch of sulfite, add metol, then all of Sulfite,CD-4, and Borax. then add 10 ml of a 10ml of a 10% solution of Benzotriozle/borax solution. (2 g of BZT and 2 g Borax in 200 ml of water). add very cold water to say 600 ml, then add Sodium Hydroxide, add water to 1 liter @68 F.
Devlope for 13 minutes. After pour is complete, aggitate for the first minute- 2 inversions every 5 seconds. there after 2 inversions every 5 seconds for each additional minute that passes. stop/fix as usual. etc.c.. . . .

B+F .35, Z_I-.56, Z_II-.71, Z_III-.82, Z_IV-.95, Z_V-1.13, Z_VI-1.27, Z_VII-1.48, Z_VIII-1.65, Z_IX-1.83, Z_X-1.97

As you can see these are dense negatives. I have not found a good formula Between the Alkaline and the restrainer so as not to inhibit development of highlights but not to develope the unexposed. Maybe Carbonate will be the trick?? IDK

this may work for Alt printing, salt prints. maybe if you reduced time to 10 minutes?

thanks.

Hmmm Thanks for this post. It is timely. Since the film is so thin, are you tank or tray developing these? What are you using and is it working ok for you?

Alan Johnson · Dec 29, 2021

Greg kindly sent me his densitometer results which I have put on the attached graph.
The lower red curve is for Aviphot 200 @ EI = 200, as per post 141. The approximate contrast index is 0.27, which gives a histogram nicely filling 1-255 on my scanner.
The upper black curve represents his results from post 182, I get an approximate contrast index of 0.53 for this, for silver gelatin , hope that is correct.
The middle blue curve was an experiment in which the times in MeCD4 were doubled and agitation increased, CI ~0.5.
All the curves are quite a bit straighter than that for Aviphot 200 in D-76, mentioned in post 177, CD4 seems to work in flattening these.

greg zinselmeier · Jan 1, 2022

If you use Allens’ formula from post 141. 2 bath developer. For 10 min. In A and in B . At 50 ASA. You should be able to get n-2 for silver gelatin print. Try it should get close. I use vertical Tank for testing. You can also use this for roll film. The straight line is pretty nice.

Thanks for all of your communication Allen. I appreciate your attention to my questions. Cheers! And have a good new year!!!

Alan Johnson · Jan 3, 2022

On a different tack I tried Agfa Copex Rapid microfilm in my Yashica T4 which defaults to EI 100 with this non DX coded film.
Development was as post 141 except the time was increased to 6m +6m 20C for this dull day.
IMO the fine detail is OK for a 4 element P&S lens. The scan was on auto, no extra contrast correction needed, probably could print on silver gelatin.
Interesting that can shoot microfilm at EI =100 in a P&S camera.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/98816417@N08/51796054957/in/dateposted-public/

Developer for Aviphot Pan 200

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