Bubbles in the negatives

[AgX]

The bubbles prevent wetting of the surface with active solution for just enough time to alter diffusion of solution. Therefore, marks appear.

This hampering would be different after each turn. How then a defined structure could appear?
Unless there is a static layer of foam. For instance when the fluid level is far below center (at least one winding). Also the rotation direction may be off effect (Archimedes effect, shoveling fluid above level).

 

[koraks]

The last 3 frames are closest to the center of the tank (especially with two 120 rolls end to end), which is also the top of the fluid level when the tank is placed horizontally.

 

[Dani]

The one with the most problem with bubbles was the third to the last frame. Pretty odd, I'm still puzzling over it.

 

[Photo Engineer]

If the rotation was slow to start, or the tank was slow to fill, bubbles form and float to the top. I cannot explain it more, but it seems to me that bubbles are the basis for this.

However, it may also be irregular drying on the lowest frames when hung. Sometimes bubbles or "micelles" form. This can cause a similar effect.

PE

 

[Dani]

The jobo I’m using only has the 75RPM speed but maybe I was too slow to pour in the developer.

The film hang with those frames being at the top.

 

[koraks]

You pour in developer, tilt the tank, attach it to the jobo and then start the motor - there's a small time frame when the tank is horizontal but not rotating. I think that's what PE is getting at. I can imagine that under some circumstances, this may yield the phenomenon you are experiencing.

FYI: I personally always do the final rinse/conditioning in a tray after taking the film off the reel. That way I get no surfactants on my tanks and reels. Previously this didn't give me problems, but I get a feeling that your mishap illustrates why this approach may be a good idea.

 

[Dani]

My jobo has a lift, so the tank is rotating all the time.

I’m going to develop some film over the weekend and I’ll report back.

Thank you all!

 

[MattKing]

The last 3 frames are closest to the center of the tank (especially with two 120 rolls end to end), which is also the top of the fluid level when the tank is placed horizontally.

Unless they are the ones closest to the edge of the tank - if you load the film into the reels the way I do.

 

[Dani]

I just checked and those three frames ended up being closest to the center of the tank.

 

[Photo Engineer]

And the center is where the solution flows out into the tank as you pour it. This may be the cause of the bubbles. Surfactant present or some such effect causing bubbles.

PE

 

[Dani]

Is there a way to effectively remove the surfactant from the tank and reel?

 

[koraks]

Wash thoroughly. Eventually it dilutes so far during repeated washing as to have no consequences. You'll notice that after a few changes of water the foaming subsides.

 

[Photo Engineer]

Wash with warm water, about 100F, and scrub gently with an old soft toothbrush.

PE

 

[Dani]

Great! I’ll try that again and again. Thank you!

 

[Photo Engineer]

THE REEL AND TANK, NOT THE FILM!!!

PE

 

[AgX]

Is there a way to effectively remove the surfactant from the tank and reel?

The residues of final rinse inside the tank got the concentration of that final rinse. With the tank filled up with a new bath one may estimate the volume of that residue and calculate its new concentration... I consider the effect of such residues overestimated.

One might do a test with a plain water bath, once inserted into a non-washed tank after final rinse and once after washing that tank, and see for foaming.

 

[kyuut]

Have you encountered the issue again? i occasionally get it with a Jobo. i've been following a lab owner friend's instruction about using max volume (650ml) but i just had it happen again to one roll

 

[Daniela]

Have you encountered the issue again? i occasionally get it with a Jobo. i've been following a lab owner friend's instruction about using max volume (650ml) but i just had it happen again to one roll

This thread is very old, but I've encountered the same issue.

My developing tank isn't a Jobo, but I realized what the source of my problem was: I have to make sure that the middle tube that holds the reels is resting firmly on the bottom of the tank. There are some plastic pieces at the bottom to hold the tube in place. If I inadvertently let the tube sit on those instead (just mms higher!), I'll get the bubble marks.

If it's any consolation, I've found that depending on whether the bubbles are, you can print some frames just fine and not see them.

 

[kyuut]

This thread is very old, but I've encountered the same issue.

My developing tank isn't a Jobo, but I realized what the source of my problem was: I have to make sure that the middle tube that holds the reels is resting firmly on the bottom of the tank. There are some plastic pieces at the bottom to hold the tube in place. If I inadvertently let the tube sit on those instead (just mms higher!), I'll get the bubble marks.

If it's any consolation, I've found that depending on whether the bubbles are, you can print some frames just fine and not see them.

i will take note of that.
but i believe the problem is more to do with chemistry, the more c-41 developer is reused the more it starts to foam and then i haven’t managed to get rid of the marks, higher volume helped for a while but it isn’t doing the job anymore. i’ve found similar threads and posts on facebook but nobody really has a solution for it besides adding wetting agent to the developer.
i’m thinking i should try pre-wetting as last resort

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I shot two rolls with the same setup. The previous frames didn't have any marks nor the first roll, or second roll depending on how it was loaded.

interesting; I also see some kind of pattern on the left of the subject in this frame.

 

[koraks]

I also see some kind of pattern on the left of the subject in this frame.

Other than the backdrop used, there's no pattern that suggests a processing issue.
Btw, I'm sure the issue is settled for @Dani 7 years after the fact.

I sometimes wonder if people notice the date of the posts they're looking at...

 

[kyuut]

Other than the backdrop used, there's no pattern that suggests a processing issue.
Btw, I'm sure the issue is settled for @Dani 7 years after the fact.

I sometimes wonder if people notice the date of the posts they're looking at...

I apologize, i've been looking for a solution for a few months, i thought i had it but it was only a matter of time again. i've searched facebook (where op also posted this years back) and forums and there's barely any info on it, although i've found more than 10 people with the same issue.
i figured since OP has logged in recently it would be best to ask directly even though the thread is old but i guess i was too desperate and should've made my own

 

[koraks]

@kyuut this was in response to Ralph above who commented on a photo someone made years ago, that for all we know is in a box or a frame somewhere and whatever technical issue might have been associated with it, is most likely become irrelevant to the photographer and the owner of the image. WE see this often on the forum, where an old thread gets kicked and then people start answering a question asked a decade or more ago as if the person who asked the question is still sitting in front of the computer waiting for the answers to pour in.

It's fine you appended a new post to this thread; you had a perfectly valid reason to do so and I support it.

 

[Dani]

Well I can chime in, 7 years later and hundreds of rolls later, the issue never returned for me. I cleaned the reel and tank thoroughly with warm water. At some point I switched from Flexicolor to Fuji chemicals.

@kyuut are you reusing your chemicals a lot? If the roll that got the bubbles very old? I had suspicions that expired film was made differently.

 

[kyuut]

Well I can chime in, 7 years later and hundreds of rolls later, the issue never returned for me. I cleaned the reel and tank thoroughly with warm water. At some point I switched from Flexicolor to Fuji chemicals.

@kyuut are you reusing your chemicals a lot? If the roll that got the bubbles very old? I had suspicions that expired film was made differently.

So, i re-use an replenish Bellini C-41 LR developer. i don't know exactly how many rolls i've run through this current working solution because i mostly develop ECN-2. my tank and reels were bought brand new and never had contact with photoflo or stabilizer, the machine is second-hand but periodically cleaned with citric acid.
i've had it happen with ECN-2 two or three times but i've done more than 300 rolls of ECN-2 film. i've run much less C-41 but the issue has been more persistent.

I posted on the Jobo groups but didn't get any useful replies, searching for old posts there and threads here didn't really get me anywhere either. I also chatted with a Mexican lab owner from the jobo FB group that has been replenishing for 10 years and he says it's normal for it to foam, but he doesn't have any issues even while running minimum volume.

my lab owner friend suggested that i should run the machine at it's limit (650ML) even with the multi tank 2. but the issue happened last night, i don't think this current batch has seen more than 30 rolls in a bit less than a month, since i discarded two batches due to contaminated film before

the only solution i've managed to find has been Edwal LFN but i'm still very resistant to putting a wetting agent in my developer and contaminating my ATL-1500.

I follow Z-131 instructions with a dry pre-heat, but i'm thinking about trying 2x1min 38c pre-wets as suggested by Photo engineer a few years back

I did two runs on a 2520 yesterday. a roll of fresh portra 400 had bubbles in the sky in one frame
the second run had an expired ferrania solaris and the issue was way more prevalent on this one. i got foam marks even in the last frame of the roll

edit: i do know kodak says not to replenish but after a lot of discussion with people in the business i've been repeatedly been told it's okay to do so. i'm not running strip tests because they are impossible to get but my results when scanning are fine. One-shotting the developer currently costs me more than my entire color process with replenishment.
if i can't find a solution i might look into making c-41 from scratch to potentially make one-shot viable cost-wise