Arches Platine

[Davec101]

Waiting to hear your thoughts Dave.

Samples should arrive tommorow, John Purcell Paper has 1000 double imperial sheets (117cmx76) in stock, so there is enough to go around should the paper be usable, there is a slight price increase but not major.

 

[donbga]

OK, so it's a few years old...geez.

I was hoping you would say that it is now available in white instead of natural white.

I first became aware of the paper in October, 2001 when it was marketed by Westin. A friend sent me some sample sheets as well as a beautiful 8x10 palladium contact print.

It's really a good paper, just wish it was white and heavier.

Don

 

[PVia]

I was hoping you would say that it is now available in white instead of natural white.

I first became aware of the paper in October, 2001 when it was marketed by Westin. A friend sent me some sample sheets as well as a beautiful 8x10 palladium contact print.

It's really a good paper, just wish it was white and heavier.

Don

No, these samples are natural.

Sorry Don, I thought you were busting my balls ;-)

 

[wlambert]

I have been using Butler-Dearden Weston paper exclusively for several years---first the Weston Diploma Parchment and now the new paper, Weston Diploma Parchment Plat-Pal, which is being produced in the recently (2007-2008) sold-and-moved factory. I don't recall exactly when the change from old to new occurred, but I have a letter from Butler-Dearden dated November, 2008, stating that samples of the new Plat-Pal would be available soon. My orders from 2007 are for the old version. I like the Plat-Pal very much. It is very warm in color (almost buff), but I think the paper color really complements the warm brown image color of palladium+Na2 developed in 80-90 degree potassium oxalate. Also, it is a very smooth-textured paper and produces excellent sharpness. Also, excellent smooth skin tones. It has an average pH of 6.5 and so doesn't need acid treatment. Another plus, it is inexpensive; a 22x34 sheet is $1.54 per sheet in quantity of 100.

The downside(s): I hardly ever had any black spots in the old version, but they are all too common in the newer version. I think they are working on that. Also, it is light in weight (177GSM) and might not be suitable for very large prints. My largest prints are 8x10 on 11x14 paper; sometimes I end up with a small tear in a margin, but no major problems. I wash one print at a time in an 11x14 Zone VI Washing Machine.

With the caveat that the black spots are depressing and oftentimes necessitate reprinting, I would recommend the paper. If you like smooth texture and warmtone, it's very good.

Wayne

 

[PVia]

Thanks for the info, Wayne...much appreciated.

 

[Davec101]

The samples arrived today, initial results look promising. The batch that the samples were taken from do not exhibit the problems I had with last years production run.

The paper feels slightly heavier, looking at the wet print results show that it has very similar print characteristics to the old ‘Platine’. I will reserve my full judgement until dry down tomorrow. I need to test more but it would seem that a drop or two of tween might be beneficial.

I would advise those who are thinking of buying a large amount of the ‘new’ Platine to get samples first and get your supplier to note down the exact batch numbers they were taken from and purchase from that batch.

The watermark has an F under where it says Arches Platine. I cant recall seeing this in previous incarnations of the paper, if so it will help distinguish between the old and new formulation.

Will update tomorrow.

 

[Dana Sullivan]

I have been testing a few samples of the new Platine, thanks to Martin Axon. My initial impression is that this paper isn't as good as the previous batch. It takes about 15%-20% more volume of emulsion to achieve the same Dmax as the previous batch (#58070 I think?). It also needs more platinum to hold back solarizing in the darkest areas when compared to the COT-320 and the as-of-yet unreleased Revere Platinum.

It's been incredibly dry here in Santa Fe, but Martin is in Connecticut and is experiencing similar phenomena. It looks to me like the Revere Platinum might be the new hot ticket.

 

[Davec101]

This morning after dry down of my samples the dmax is indeed less than previous good batchs as Dana mentions. The added tween seems to have increased the dreaded black plague. The paper seems slower also, I am going to try some more tests today increasing the exposure time which I hope will improve the final result.

 

[Davec101]

I have been testing a few samples of the new Platine, thanks to Martin Axon. My initial impression is that this paper isn't as good as the previous batch. It takes about 15%-20% more volume of emulsion to achieve the same Dmax as the previous batch (#58070 I think?). It also needs more platinum to hold back solarizing in the darkest areas when compared to the COT-320 and the as-of-yet unreleased Revere Platinum.

It's been incredibly dry here in Santa Fe, but Martin is in Connecticut and is experiencing similar phenomena. It looks to me like the Revere Platinum might be the new hot ticket.

Hi Dana

Could you ask Martin what sort of dmax figures he is getting and whether he is having to use tween.

thanks

 

[Dana Sullivan]

Martin doesn't use tween. I definitely think this paper needs it, plus a heavier coating. He said that his initial tests showed a mid-1.3 dmax, but with a heavier coat he got it over 1.4.

 

[Davec101]

Martin doesn't use tween. I definitely think this paper needs it, plus a heavier coating. He said that his initial tests showed a mid-1.3 dmax, but with a heavier coat he got it over 1.4.

Thanks for the numbers, I am achieving similar low results (1.32) , even with a heavy coat. For my environment, which at the moment is quite high humidity, this new formulation has to have a drop of tween otherwise you get an inconstant coat (white speckling).

Having used Cot 320 every day for the last 3 months, which as you know is essentially Platine with a thin layer of gelatine, I have only had to deal with a very small amount of black spots i.e the black plague however my initial tests with the new formulation show that this is quite a problem.

I have ordered some more sample sheets from my supplier before giving up on this paper as I would like to give it a good chance to perform. It has been a good paper in the past, however unfortunately I think the days are gone when you could rely on it.

 

[Manuel G Teixeira]

Martin doesn't use tween. I definitely think this paper needs it, plus a heavier coating. He said that his initial tests showed a mid-1.3 dmax, but with a heavier coat he got it over 1.4.

I can get 1.4 to 1.5 dMax with COT320,(even with the not so good last batches,like #5213 or #5214/1) aka Platine, with single coat Pt/Pd/Na2_2.5%.
And not with "inconstant coat (white speckling)" as David Chow said. I found exactly the same problem with the Platine samples I've tested, from John Purcell.

Well, I really miss the old high performance Platine from the old times !

 

[Manuel G Teixeira]

Thanks for the numbers, I am achieving similar low results (1.32) , even with a heavy coat. For my environment, which at the moment is quite high humidity, this new formulation has to have a drop of tween otherwise you get an inconstant coat (white speckling).

Having used Cot 320 every day for the last 3 months, which as you know is essentially Platine with a thin layer of gelatine, I have only had to deal with a very small amount of black spots i.e the black plague however my initial tests with the new formulation show that this is quite a problem.

I have ordered some more sample sheets from my supplier before giving up on this paper as I would like to give it a good chance to perform. It has been a good paper in the past, however unfortunately I think the days are gone when you could rely on it.

David,


I'll have some samples of the new Revere Platinum in a few days. I really hope that this new paper can be a valid alternative to COT320/Platine.

I'll let you know the results.

 

[Davec101]

David,


I'll have some samples of the new Revere Platinum in a few days. I really hope that this new paper can be a valid alternative to COT320/Platine.

I'll let you know the results.

Yes that would be good to hear some feedback on the 'Revere', i have heard good things about it from B&S.

At the moment i am also testing some pre-treated BFK Rives @ 250gsm/280gsm and 300gsm. This paper seems to be the most common paper used by Penn, I shall have to go back and view the Penn originals prints again as I cant remember whether he printed on the rough side or the mesh side, I am sure it was the latter. The paper has showed some promising results in the past and if there has'nt been too much change since Penn's printing days, could again be used for multiple hits. Anyone else got experience with this paper?

 

[Manuel G Teixeira]

Yes that would be good to hear some feedback on the 'Revere', i have heard good things about it from B&S.

At the moment i am also testing some pre-treated BFK Rives @ 250gsm/280gsm and 300gsm. This paper seems to be the most common paper used by Penn, I shall have to go back and view the Penn originals prints again as I cant remember whether he printed on the rough side or the mesh side, I am sure it was the latter. The paper has showed some promising results in the past and if there has'nt been too much change since Penn's printing days, could again be used for multiple hits. Anyone else got experience with this paper?

Do you think Penn pre-treated the BFK Rives ?
Today the acid-free paranoia has ruined most of papers that used to work very well with Pt/Pd printing. As you know Pd/Pd chemistry only works properly in an acidic environment.
I have very detailed images of those V&A Penn's prints in which the texture is clearly visible . Perhaps from there it will be possible to evaluate what side of the paper he used to print them. I'll let you know.

Since 1999 that in all my visits to London I went to the basement stationary section of Harrods( the lady working there almost remembered my name, already ) to buy boxes of Crane's Kid Finish Ecru. Unfortunately, I've discovered that most of my large stock( from the last 3 or for 4 years) doesn't work at all with Pt/Pd. I've tested all the boxes with a pH pen, and the last ones are clearly not acidic as used to be.
Shame on Crane's, this paper used to give amazing results with a dMax of 1.55 and beyond !
Now, perhaps only with a pre-treatment.

 

[Dana Sullivan]

Has anyone tried treating the new Platine with oxalic acid yet? I'll run some through a tray and see if it makes a difference. Rives BFK is a good paper, it's just incredibly absorbent, and pre-treating it will make it even more so. It might take twice the emulsion to cover the image area.

 

[Davec101]

Do you think Penn pre-treated the BFK Rives ?
.

I have not seen or read anything to suggest that he did but for me its the only way to get a good result from that paper at the moment. Penn is reported to have tried over 100 different papers in his quest to find the ones perfect for his workflow and process. As modern platinum printers we just has to keep testing and trying new and old papers, once you find a good one buy up as much of it as you can afford.

 

[Davec101]

Has anyone tried treating the new Platine with oxalic acid yet? I'll run some through a tray and see if it makes a difference. Rives BFK is a good paper, it's just incredibly absorbent, and pre-treating it will make it even more so. It might take twice the emulsion to cover the image area.

I have not tried yet, i would be interested to hear your results Dana.

 

[R Shaffer]

Rives BFK is all I have used for the past year and half, although for kallitype & gum, not pt/pd. To make life easy (?) I pretreat all the paper the same.

I shrink in very hot water with 1 teaspoon oxalic per liter ( approx 1% ) for 1/2 to 1 hour. After it's dry I tray size in a 21 gram gelatin w/ .8 gram chrome alum per liter. 54 drops ( total ) emulsion to coat 11x14. For kallitype I preferred the results if I sized with arrowroot starch, but I prefer tray sizing batches of paper. PVA diluted 1:1 as a size works, but it is still very absorbent. If you really want to get miserly with emulsion, then 1:1 PVA over the gelatin.

I don't really measure Dmax much as I prefer a very warm black almost sepia tone. Last time I checked I was at 1.35, which for me is a very convincing black.

 

[Davec101]

Rives BFK is all I have used for the past year and half, although for kallitype & gum, not pt/pd. To make life easy (?) I pretreat all the paper the same.

I shrink in very hot water with 1 teaspoon oxalic per liter ( approx 1% ) for 1/2 to 1 hour. After it's dry I tray size in a 21 gram gelatin w/ .8 gram chrome alum per liter. 54 drops ( total ) emulsion to coat 11x14. For kallitype I preferred the results if I sized with arrowroot starch, but I prefer tray sizing batches of paper. PVA diluted 1:1 as a size works, but it is still very absorbent. If you really want to get miserly with emulsion, then 1:1 PVA over the gelatin.

I don't really measure Dmax much as I prefer a very warm black almost sepia tone. Last time I checked I was at 1.35, which for me is a very convincing black.

Thanks Rob for the info, which weight are you using and which side are you printing on? What is it that you like about BFK over the many other papers available?

 

[R Shaffer]

Thanks Rob for the info, which weight are you using and which side are you printing on? What is it that you like about BFK over the many other papers available?

There is a tactile quality to my prints on the BFK that is not present on the plantine or COT. This is especially true of gum overs and difficult to express in words, but the shadows really sing.

I've thought about trying the Fabriano EW, but I'm happy and dialed in with the BFK. So if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I use the Rives BFK 250 gram. My local art supply Lenz Arts sells a 100 sheet pack for $215 & singles for $2.85 ( vs. $8.95 for plantine )

Definitely print on the front, no likey the back.

 

[PVia]

Rob, thanks for your take and method with BFK.

David, the Penn Small Trades series were done almost exclusively with Arches paper. I had a short email discussion with a friend of Penn's at the time these were printed. He said that the studio used to look like a laundry when they were sizing sheets with gelatin, sometimes 2-3 layers with drying in between.

 

[Davec101]

David, the Penn Small Trades series were done almost exclusively with Arches paper. I had a short email discussion with a friend of Penn's at the time these were printed. He said that the studio used to look like a laundry when they were sizing sheets with gelatin, sometimes 2-3 layers with drying in between.

Thats interesting you mention that, just yesturday i was looking at some Arches Aquarelle and thinking about trying some as I remember seeing this paper used on some of the Penn's 'Street Findings' series, the paper is quite easy to identify as it has a heavy emboss in the bottom corner. Quite of few those prints are single layer on Arches and have a good strong black (see attached). Anyone used it before?

 

[PVia]

David, I just made a small palladium print about a week ago on Arches 90# watercolor paper. I acidified in oxalic acid. It printed extremely well, no anomalies.

On the same day I printed the same neg on Stonehenge, also acidified and had great results.

The only comparison I coud make btw the two is that Arches is slightly slower and has a slightly less warm color than the Stonehenge (which is known for a warm tone with Pd).

 

[Bob Carnie]

Dave I have been using it in my testing on a bunch of processes and I like the paper but as we are still at testing stage and have not tested a range of different papers my comments would be useless for you.
I have used this paper for inkjet printing and love the look but that will not help you.
This paper is definately on my hit list, just need to find out where it will fit in.

Thats interesting you mention that, just yesturday i was looking at some Arches Aquarelle and thinking about trying some as I remember seeing this paper used on some of the Penn's 'Street Findings' series, the paper is quite easy to identify as it has a heavy emboss in the bottom corner. Quite of few those prints are single layer on Arches and have a good strong black (see attached). Anyone used it before?