Bubbles in the negatives

[kyuut]

My suggestion would be trying to use prewet with water, and probably trying to add a stop bath after developing. It could help with issues with uneven developing. I had a problem with streaks developing RA-4 in tubes, and prewetting the paper solved the problem for me.

I currently use a stop bath due to my SR-29 Bleach, but i will be trying a pre-wet soon, i think this will fix my issue.
developer dilution with time is a concern but i believe adjusting it with gravity tests to get it within spec might suffice.

 

[koraks]

@kyuut I agree the problem is undeniably there. I agree also with @Sanug and others that a pre-wet would be a good place to start.

 

[originalwinslow]

I don't think developer dilution will be much of an issue if you replenish slightly above spec. I shake out the tank until almost no water drops come out. Maybe a couple ml of water remain in the tank at that point. My replenished developer didn't lose strength after 130+ rolls (25 dev cycles) of this.

 

[bambiwallace]

i have seen bubbles like this in b/w film. if along just the edge it's because of too little developer. like those in your background, it was because the student who used the reel prior to the person getting bubbles did not thoroughly wash the reel after the photo-flo. the photo-flo was dried on the reel and when the developer was dumped it was especially foamy. don't know is this applies to color but it's plausible.

 

[originalwinslow]

Speak of the devil and he shall appear, as they say.

Ironically, after posting that I had never seen this bubble-shaped staining, I had the pleasure of having it occur it in my most recent dev. Luckily it is only visible on a single frame of 120.

I am 100% sure it was caused by foaming of the developer. Normally I slightly overfill my paterson tank but in this case about 30ml less was in the bottle and, although the negative was fully covered, some foam certainly created this effect on one edge of the negative. Left side.

@kyuut try adding slightly more developer to keep the foam level higher in the tank and it should resolve the issue.

 

[kyuut]

Speak of the devil and he shall appear, as they say.

Ironically, after posting that I had never seen this bubble-shaped staining, I had the pleasure of having it occur it in my most recent dev. Luckily it is only visible on a single frame of 120.

I am 100% sure it was caused by foaming of the developer. Normally I slightly overfill my paterson tank but in this case about 30ml less was in the bottle and, although the negative was fully covered, some foam certainly created this effect on one edge of the negative. Left side.

@kyuut try adding slightly more developer to keep the foam level higher in the tank and it should resolve the issue.

that’s unfortunate!
in my case i’m running it in rotary. i’m overfilling my tank by about twice the suggested amount from Jobo, it’s physically impossible to fit more chemistry into the tank as it takes 1250ml for inversion processing and i’m running 650ML with it rotating sideways. the recommended amount by jobo to evenly cover the film is 270ml.

I did develop 6 rolls of C-41 on saturday and it’s fine so far, i’m pre-wetting and i have the impression my developer is foaming less, but i’m only gonna be certain after maybe 10 more rolls.

 

[kyuut]

Well, just developed a few more C-41 rolls and this was the first one, tad underexposed Portra 400 shot by a friend, bubble marks in one picture closer to the start of the roll.
as before, 650ML developer in a 2520 2-reel Jobo tank, rotary processed, in this specific case only this roll was loaded but two reels were used, 2x 30 seconds pre-wet before the developer step

attached below is the same frame as inverted in NLP and i tried to show the bubbles in frame two. it is less noticeable than before.

 

[originalwinslow]

There is a difference with how the bubbles form in your example than mine. They are all across the frame in yours. This makes me think that somehow the bubbles are remaining in place as your film spins rather than sitting on top of the liquid. I am assuming you do not tap the tank to dislodge any bubbles while it is in the jobo. If you are replenishing developer it may be that the solution has become overly foamy to the point of longer being workable. Did someone say replenished developer is not "recommended" for rotary processing? Perhaps the developer enters the tank quite foamy and sticks to the negative for long enough to create this effect.

Then again, only mildly visible on one frame of one roll? That margin of error isn't bad.

 

[kyuut]

There is a difference with how the bubbles form in your example than mine. They are all across the frame in yours. This makes me think that somehow the bubbles are remaining in place as your film spins rather than sitting on top of the liquid. I am assuming you do not tap the tank to dislodge any bubbles while it is in the jobo. If you are replenishing developer it may be that the solution has become overly foamy to the point of longer being workable. Did someone say replenished developer is not "recommended" for rotary processing? Perhaps the developer enters the tank quite foamy and sticks to the negative for long enough to create this effect.

Then again, only mildly visible on one frame of one roll? That margin of error isn't bad.

The developer wasn’t particularly foamy i’d say, it got a bit more once i cross processed a roll of provia as the last roll but nowhere near how it was the last time i discarded it.

the developer is pumped by the machine so i don’t think the tank tapping applies here (i’d have to take it out mid developing)
replenishing isn’t recommended due to oxidation but i’m following the advice of people more experienced than me with local commercial developing.

if i can’t replenish then C-41 is unprofitable, i can’t raise my prices enough to justify one-shot developing either. my last resort would be DIY developer, CD-4 is gonna be a pain but i can get it through a friend in asia

 

[originalwinslow]

I understand, I'm under similar constraints in terms of price per roll for chems. I think your problem is likely solvable without having to one-shot. How many rolls have gone through your replenished solution? Is there any way to reduce foam formation when introducing the developer?

I tried to DIY C-41 last year and got bogged down with an issue with the red saturation (formation of the cyan dye?) and put that project on hold. I got consistent results but I couldn't quite get it close enough to factory chems to confidently dev other people's images with it. Most people probably wouldn’t be able to tell the difference unless you looked at comparison images back to back.

DIY ECN-2 looks good and is easier, unless getting CD is difficult.

 

[kyuut]

I understand, I'm under similar constraints in terms of price per roll for chems. I think your problem is likely solvable without having to one-shot. How many rolls have gone through your replenished solution? Is there any way to reduce foam formation when introducing the developer?

I tried to DIY C-41 last year and got bogged down with an issue with the red saturation (formation of the cyan dye?) and put that project on hold. I got consistent results but I couldn't quite get it close enough to factory chems to confidently dev other people's images with it. Most people probably wouldn’t be able to tell the difference unless you looked at comparison images back to back.

DIY ECN-2 looks good and is easier, unless getting CD is difficult.

the roll posted was the 7th one developed.

the only other thing in the process i could change is stop using the machine's heating and pumping of chemicals and pour it by hand, but it will still rotate at 70rpm. that also seems counter intuitive for consistency

 

[originalwinslow]

7 rolls should be too few to create excessive foaming on its own. Mine starts to get noticeably foamier by roll 100. If you can pour by hand while maintaining the heating that's the next thing I would try. Takes a step of automation out of the process though.

 

[kyuut]

7 rolls should be too few to create excessive foaming on its own. Mine starts to get noticeably foamier by roll 100. If you can pour by hand while maintaining the heating that's the next thing I would try. Takes a step of automation out of the process though.

yeah. generally i develop maybe close to 20 and then the foam starts leaking out of the tank. the developer didn’t look too foamy but still affected it.
i want to try tap water to see if the water hardness might help, unfortunately i already mixed all my replenisher with distilled.
as a last resort i did the math on switching chemistry and one-shotting can work if i switch to champion or kodak, only need to increase my price slightly. supply is an issue but i’m gonna have to make do with what i can

 

[originalwinslow]

The question I have is how long the foam would need to sit stagnant on the negative to leave a lasting stain? Is there a delay from when your tank fills with developer to the start of agitation, or does it occur simultaneously?

Using tap water might do more damage than it's worth depending on the contents. I try to avoid introducing unknown variables.

 

[kyuut]

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The question I have is how long the foam would need to sit stagnant on the negative to leave a lasting stain? Is there a delay from when your tank fills with developer to the start of agitation, or does it occur simultaneously?

Using tap water might do more damage than it's worth depending on the contents. I try to avoid introducing unknown variables.

the tank is filled while being rotated always, the only moment it doesn’t is when i’m pouring it out from the tank, i don’t take long to pour it as i try to fill it with stop bath quickly, i did realize today that one potential cause could be how i tip the tank slightly for the water that accumulates under the lid to come out before i bring the tank outside the machine for emptying / stop bath. that takes maybe 3 seconds. i will be trying to empty in one single movement without delays and report back soon.
i don’t think it’s the main cause of the issue but it could potentially explain why i’m getting these marks after just a few rolls.

 

[Bexhill Darkroom]

I'm using a Jobo CPE2+ and the stabilizer was done off the reel and in a separate container. I used a 2523 tank and used two rolls in one reel.
I did two presoaks of 30 seconds each and then pour in fresh developer, then a stop bath (it came off very foamy), then bleach, rinse, fixer, rinse and then a final rinse for 10 minutes using tap water. The stabilizer was with distilled water.

One roll was nice and clean and the other one had the issues on the last 3 frames or so.
Thank you!

I have had exactly the same issue on a hand developed roll of Rollei Retro 80s. To this day i can't work out what it is. Very obvious on this shot. I developed three films at the same time in a Paterson tank and only one film had this issue.

 

[kyuut]

Hello! update.

the other day i developed 6 rolls and managed to check 5 in the scanner, no foam marks in any.
today i developed 4 rolls, scanned 2 so far and i don't see marks either.

what i changed: i started suspecting my issue was being caused during drainage of the developer and not during agitation, whenever i take off the tank from the cog i irrationally put it upright and tilt it slightly for the water under the lid to fall into the bath before i bring it closer to my body to drain and add stop, this doesn't take long but after a lot of thinking i realized that movement would pretty much put the foam exactly where i'd be having issues.
so i started draining the tank immediately in one motion and adding stop bath quickly ( i also realized i was eye balling the stop a bit weak and made it stronger to 2%)

so far it has been fine, and the pre-rinses seem to be helping with the developer not accumulating foam. it would be interesting to move back to not pre-rinsing and checking if the issue starts occurring. i'm still a bit thorn whether i prefer a dry pre-heat or wet, i do notice some magenta shadows from time to time now but it could just be negative lab pro.

 

[originalwinslow]

Good to hear!

NLP curses me with magenta shadows constantly. I don't think a pre-wet would create color casts. But maybe under certain circumstances that I'm not aware of.

 

[kyuut]

Well.. good news doesn't last. my issue with C-41 returned and now i'm facing it with black and white too. washed everything with citric acid and a toothbrush. a few days ago i did 2 rolls of black and white and then C-41, got marks in both. after cleaning i did a few more bw rolls and i see the marks again.. a friend suggested that i try using filtered water instead of tap. i wonder if something in my
water changed and could be causing this.

 

[koraks]

a friend suggested that i try using filtered water instead of tap. i wonder if something in my
water changed and could be causing this.

Sounds far-fetched. Doesn't hurt to try, but I wouldn't put any money on this being the cause.

Are you still using your 'new' procedure of immediately pouring in the stop bath after pouring out the developer? How much time does it take to go from pouring out the developer until the stop bath is all poured into the tank?
Was this run on a Jobo, or did you process manually?
Did you use a pre-wash of some sort?

btw, that image looks decidedly funny, as if it's a very, very low-contrast negative that has been boosted tremendously digitally. It's similar to what you've shown before. Can you post a photo of the film strip with this negative shown against a backlight?

 

[kyuut]

Sounds far-fetched. Doesn't hurt to try, but I wouldn't put any money on this being the cause.

Are you still using your 'new' procedure of immediately pouring in the stop bath after pouring out the developer? How much time does it take to go from pouring out the developer until the stop bath is all poured into the tank?
Was this run on a Jobo, or did you process manually?
Did you use a pre-wash of some sort?

btw, that image looks decidedly funny, as if it's a very, very low-contrast negative that has been boosted tremendously digitally. It's similar to what you've shown before. Can you post a photo of the film strip with this negative shown against a backlight?

I don't think i did with the first batch of 2x SHD 400 (no pre-wash), i did for C-41 and i think i did for the run of hp5 that was affected, generally i wasn't too worried with BW because it never happened and i've processed close to 300 rolls the same way in the Jobo.
i don't use a stop for BW but figured i should try next time.
my drain time from taking the tank off the machine's cog and draining 500ml entirely is 7 seconds. just timed it.
pouring back what i removed totaled 20 seconds from emptying to filling with liquid

thinking hard i'm still pretty sure the foam happens in pouring out. i understand why it happens with my C-41 developer but i don't get why it's happening with D-76 1:1. the developer doesn't foam too much and as said it has never happened since i started using the machine 6-7 months ago

this is the best i can do, i took a picture with my scanning setup with the camera but it seems my card reader stopped working. i could also send the coolscan uninverted file or scan it on the v700. it's hard to see in the picture but i can see the bubbles in the edge of the frame. the inversion posted previously was just inverted in NLP with default settings, it was the more obvious example but it also happened in other pictures of the roll, even towards the end

 

[kyuut]

here's another example, this time inverted manually with just a curve inversion

 

[koraks]

Those negatives look a little on the thin side, but it's not an explanation for the bubble patterns.

I'd do a couple of sessions by hand (no Jobo machine) for B&W. I bet the problem doesn't occur in that case, but it would be interesting to verify.

 

[kyuut]

Those negatives look a little on the thin side, but it's not an explanation for the bubble patterns.

I'd do a couple of sessions by hand (no Jobo machine) for B&W. I bet the problem doesn't occur in that case, but it would be interesting to verify.

these were part of a batch of rolls a friend shot several years ago, Ilford's shorter time for D-76 adjusted for rotary processing, i prefer the longer time for ID-11 so i've switched back to that one.

i did a couple Jobo sessions with fresh C-41 chems and D-76 mixed with RO water, about 16 rolls of C-41 and 4 BW, also did one BW session on a Nikor tank, i introduced a citric acid stop bath to the BW process and started pouring like i do for C-41 - no issues so far. i'm still very confused but i'm sure the bubble marks always happen during the tank draining. i'm not too slow to drain and i do try to always do it the same away so i'm not sure of what's going on.

i expect the B&W to return to normal but i'm still wary of C-41. if the issue returns i'm likely gonna switch chemistry and try one-shot
at this point i think i'm just unlucky. i don't see anything noticeably wrong with my process and i'm a little over 600 rolls since last year. these 2 previous sessions were the first time i've had any issue with BW, but i did get C-41 issues even when hand processing in the Nikor tank last year.
ECN-2 which was the majority of what i've developed has been quite consistent.