Y marks on my negatives! Why?

Chris Livsey · Oct 17, 2014

First of all, if all of your students are using the same film, from the same emulsion and some are getting it while others do not, the problem is not the film.

This was asked at the very start, but never clearly answered by the OP. I understood not all students were getting the effect but were all using, as asked above, the same batch of same film?
The maker will, quite correctly, absolve the emulsion if some workers are not getting the effect.

GarageBoy · Oct 17, 2014

Scrap everything and start over (chemical wise)
New bottles (doesn't have to be fancy), new properly mixed dev/stop/fixer
Closely watch your temperature
Don't let anyone touch the chemicals until you finish testing

MartinP · Oct 17, 2014

Initially the OP mentioned both TriX and the rebadged Foma - if that is correct, rather than a temporary misunderstanding, then it would suggest a process problem rather than materials? The other descriptions of activities suggest no control or consistency with temperatures or cleanliness so pinning down one cause, or combination of causes, will be tricky.

Rick A · Oct 17, 2014

Send a roll of exposed film to me for processing. I will clip it and develop half in PMK pyro and other half in D-76. I will post findings here.

georgegrosu · Oct 20, 2014

mrs.martin, if you look at the emulsion in reflected light it is defective?
Emulsion shows cracks?
If we talk about the picture with seat and back wall.
In the picture shows 40-50 of defects in the form of Y and points - stains.
In a film with 36 images severity defects is about the same?
Or is it higher / lower?
When we talk about a defects may be continuous or in some portions.
If not defects comes in a film that does not mean the whole lot of film is
without no problem.
Defects can be viewed in a statistical form.

George

Regular Rod · Oct 20, 2014

Surely we have already explained what caused the marks?

Reticulation by too great difference of temperature during drying.

The drying temperature was too high so drops of final rinse water that remained standing caused localised differences in temperature that were great enough to cause these spots of reticulation that erupted into the Y shaped marks. In some places the damage is actually beginning to join up.

The remedy is surely to process with careful temperature control and to dry the film with little, preferably no, heat?

mrs.martin, have you tried this yet?

RR

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 20, 2014

Regular Rod said:
Surely we have already explained what caused the marks?

Reticulation by too great difference of temperature during drying.

The drying temperature was too high so drops of final rinse water that remained standing caused localised differences in temperature that were great enough to cause these spots of reticulation that erupted into the Y shaped marks. In some places the damage is actually beginning to join up.

The remedy is surely to process with careful temperature control and to dry the film with little, preferably no, heat?

mrs.martin, have you tried this yet?

RR

Along with making sure chemistry bottles are kept separate based on what goes in them, clean, and without contamination. Darkroom cleanliness can be a real problem in a shared darkroom space.
To run a test with freshly mixed developer, stop bath, fixer, and wetting agent, stored in clean new bottles, and then exercise temperature control at all stages, including washing. Hang to dry without hot air.

Those are, in my opinion, the most likely contributors to the issue at hand.

mrs.martin · Oct 20, 2014

We do not have any heat in our cabinets - just a fan from behind that gets air circulating through a small vent at the top - no heat whatsoever.

mrs.martin · Oct 20, 2014

As far as the rest we have clean bottles, always separate. Clearly labeled - never cross contaminated. Use separate mixing jugs too!
I can't really send a roll to anyone b/c it's not every roll. It's so hit or miss. But still happening... Probably 1 out of 15.

Chris Livsey · Oct 20, 2014

And the batch numbers?????

Arvee · Oct 20, 2014

Try a different film. I've run into manufacturing defects with Arista Premium, both the 100 and the 400. I also saw a lot of manufacturing defects with Efke film. I would expect to see the same with Foma film, although I have never used it (learned my lesson on the previous films). Went back to Ilford products and have never encountered a problem. The old saw, "You get what you pay for," comes into play here.

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2014

A defect like that on Tri-X? And the same defect on other products? Never happen. Something external is causing this. And, it does not appear to be reticulation.

PE

pdeeh · Oct 20, 2014

Trying to resolve this by looking at low resolution scans online is pretty much being on a hiding to nothing.

Until someone - someone who really knows what they're looking at, I mean - gets a sample under a 10x loupe, or stronger, almost every opinion (except PE's) is just so much speculation.

Dave in Kansas · Oct 20, 2014

While Tri-X was mentioned in the first post, I don't think it has been confirmed that these marks appear on both films. If so, as PE stated, it's not a film issue and must be process related. However, if it only happens on the Arista then I think it is a film issue that might be eliminated with very careful processing. Maybe.

Photo Engineer · Oct 20, 2014

And so far, IDK what it is, but it sure does not look like reticulation, particularly with that mix of films.

PE

Simon R Galley · Oct 21, 2014

I agree with PE

99% sure that this is not reticulation.

Simon ILFORD Photo / HARMAN technology Limited :

AgX · Oct 21, 2014

It is not reticulation in the common sense of a homogeneous spread. Nor does it share shape.

But nevertheless it looks like shrunk and torn emulsion. Remarkable is the quite uniform shape, though not size and spread.

As if there are nuclei for such tearing.

But as repeatedly said, we need reflection photographs of that surface.

cliveh · Oct 21, 2014

It looks to me like some pollen related substance, perhaps blown into the emulsion during drying.

Regular Rod · Oct 21, 2014

Okay don't call it reticulation then if the term reticulation can only apply when the damage is spread across the entire negative. BUT it is emulsion damage that looks localised (although closer inspection reveals there is further damage near the Y marks) and could readily correspond with sites where drops of final rinse water have differed in temperature during the drying process. Has the OP tried another batch with exactly the same routine but this time no heat in the drying cabinet?

RR

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 21, 2014

Regular Rod said:
Okay don't call it reticulation then if the term reticulation can only apply when the damage is spread across the entire negative. BUT it is emulsion damage that looks localised (although closer inspection reveals there is further damage near the Y marks) and could readily correspond with sites where drops of final rinse water have differed in temperature during the drying process. Has the OP tried another batch with exactly the same routine but this time no heat in the drying cabinet?

RR

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mrs. Martin clearly states they do not use heated drying cabinets.

Regular Rod · Oct 21, 2014

Thomas Bertilsson said:
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Mrs. Martin clearly states they do not use heated drying cabinets.

I had missed that post. Thank you for drawing that to my attention.

Okay assuming no naughty student turned on the heat to hurry things along...

I went looking for the post and found the attached photograph of the cabinet.

To get film dry in only 45 minutes with no heat one assumes the fan is blowing strongly...

In the photograph there seems to be some contact being made by some of the films against part of the wall of the cabinet. What is the surface of the cabinet wall like? Completely smooth or with some texture?

Might it be that the few films that have made contact with the cabinet wall are the ones with the damage? Is sticky emulsion being momentarily tacked to the wall then blown free by the fan to leave tiny raised and split portions of emulsion?

If I was one of the students my film would never be hung on that left hand rail!

RR

pentaxuser · Oct 21, 2014

Regular Rod said:
To get film dry in only 45 minutes with no heat one assumes the fan is blowing strongly...

Might it be that the few films that have made contact with the cabinet wall are the ones with the damage? Is sticky emulsion being momentarily tacked to the wall then blown free by the fan to leave tiny raised and split portions of emulsion?

If I was one of the students my film would never be hung on that left hand rail!

RR

RR I manage to dry film in 45 mins or less in my cabinet without any heat but you may well have something in the points you make about the way of hanging and films' proximity to the left hand edge of the cabinet especially

pentaxuser

Thomas Bertilsson · Oct 21, 2014

I agree that after looking at that picture it makes sense to see if any physical harm is done to the film at any point of the process, particularly in the drying cabinet where the film touches the side wall brace.

It would also be good to see a picture of the damaged film, on the base side, if there is any physical damage to the film base due to kinking in the film reel loading process, etc.

MattKing · Oct 21, 2014

The pattern of the "Y"s looks like a grate.

Xmas · Oct 21, 2014

Getting film dry in 45 minutes is fast, I use a film squeegee and it still takes 5-6 hours.

If you want or need 45 minutes you need to use the techniques the newspapers used for stop press photos.

Y marks on my negatives! Why?

Chris Livsey

GarageBoy

MartinP

Rick A

georgegrosu

Regular Rod

Thomas Bertilsson

mrs.martin

mrs.martin

Chris Livsey

Arvee

Photo Engineer

pdeeh

Dave in Kansas

Photo Engineer

Simon R Galley

AgX

cliveh

Regular Rod

Thomas Bertilsson

Regular Rod

Attachments

pentaxuser

Thomas Bertilsson

MattKing

Moderator

Xmas

Y marks on my negatives! Why?

Attachments

Moderator

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency