This intrigues me. I hope that there can be a wider discussion of this.
Does this mean that if one (stupidly but with correct accuracy) spot meters off a grey card in the scene and develops and prints such that your 512 units of light are correctly represented, that that part of the image that is the grey card will be Zone 7?
Take a bright white piece of paper and put it in direct sunlight. Place a grey card against it and then meter both. How many stops difference are there ?
I would suggest it will be about 2 1/3 stops. Infact you can use the reverse side of the grey card if its a genuine Kodak one. Just make sure the card is in same plane when you turn it over and meter position is same.
I will do that, but I was enquiring about how it prints, not how it meters.
Oh, and if you meter the card and place it on zone 7 and print for a zone 7 then you will be about right if you've calibrated for a 10 stop range.
But if you have metered white and placed it zone 10 and print time is set for zone 10 then yes the grey card print approx 2 1/2 print values darker if calibration was for a 10 stop range. Or print value 7 if you calibrated for 7 1/3 stop range.
I appreciate there are many variables; and I appreciate your frankness.
Referring to your last sentence and with regards to placing the tone of the grey card in Zone 7, if the card is metered as part of a 10 brightness range (your EI and development) and the suggested camera settings are used as read, I interpret, that, that is, by definition, placing the tone of the card in Zone 7.
Consequently, to place that tone in Zone 5, the suggested exposure will be reduced by 2 stops.
Do I understand you correctly?
Each stop is twice or half as much light as previous. If we shine 512 units of light at a target then if there were 11 cards each with a reflectance of twice the previous then:
0=1/2
1=1
2=2
3=4
4=8
5=16
6=32
7=64
8=128
9=256
10=512
So the mid point is 5 which will reflect 16 units of light. 16 is 3.125% of 512.
The point where 18% is reflected is where the reflectance is 92.16 units of light and that is between card 7 and card 8, 2 1/2 stops less than the full 100% of 512.
If we have 6 cards and shine 16 units of light at them, then;
0=1/2
1=1
2=2
3=4
4=8
5=16
The mid point is between cards 2 and 3 which is 3 units of light. 3 is 18.75% of 16 which is close enough and is 2 1/2 stops from 100% of reflectance.
18% is always 2 1/2 stops less than whatever is 100% reflectance in the same light.
However, its not that simple. The first example above is a false representation of real life except in a lab prepared experiment.
The second example of 5 stop range is more life like.
But again its more difficult than that becasue your spot meter does more stuff to reduce the reading. It divides by approx 12.5 which is same as taking 8% of the reading.
trying to keep all this in your head when doing practical photography simply isn't necessary.
Typically the part of your subject which is in direct light will represent only a portion of that range and the other portion will be in varying degrees of shade. So where do you place your grey card if you are using one? The answer is to tear it up and forget all about grey cards and use a spot meter to measure an actual highlight and shadow, determine the range and decide whether you want to expose for a shadow or a highlight and place the exposure where you want it on your film curve. If you must use a grey card then you may as well use an incident meter which will likely be more consistently accurate due to difficulty of using a grey accurately which requires specific angles between card, light source and camera for it to give an 18% reflectance.
Personally I have adopted the methodolgy of calibrating EI and Dev to capture that full 10 stop range so thats its printable on G2 paper. I then meter for and expose for a highlight except where the range is too long in which case I expose for a shadow.
Thanks for finally explaining your approach. You're using a ten stop range and fitting it on the full range of the paper. Makes sense. What I think you are missing is the 7 1/3 stop calibration part. The range of the paper for the 7 1/3 stop test is shorter than the full range of the paper. The remainder of the 10 stop range falls outside "aim" density range for the 7 1/3 stop test willing the full range of the paper. The results are basically the same.
Are they? I don't think so becasue my CI, as I said is around 0.5. Standard dev is significantly higher. How you manage to say they are the same just doesn't make any kind of sense. They won't magically print the same way with same same contrast on the same grade.
I can show you how it works with a lot of graphs, plus I said basically. There are a number of variables that I'm unaware of in your testing. What is your aim NDR? How did you produce the test negative? I'm referring to the no flare test vs the camera image. That's one stop difference in effective luminance range. Adams made this mistake. Many people do. Before dismissing something, maybe you should work through it first. For me, I'm suspecting your testing or interpretation of the results are lacking something.
HiRonAdams knew that overexposure of negatives increased the average number of acceptable prints!
Mees published it in his book with a graph showing this. So did Haist. It is in his book. And, before he became ill, he was tracing Adams route through the Grand Tetons reproducing many of the Adams shots on modern film, both B&W and color.
Adams could not afford to miss a shot.
So, he biased the zone system to call for about 1/2 to 1/3 stop overexposure in order to increase the number of usable negatives when he was out in the middle of nowhere and could not go back easily to re-create a scene. This was to help you all out, not create trillions of disturbed electrons discussing why and wherefore!
Simple as that!
PE
Are they? I don't think so because my CI, as I said is around 0.5. Standard dev is significantly higher. You have copied and studied Adams numbers. I looked at them and ignored them.
No. The calibration means that with a spot meter, whatever you meter will give you a zone 5 placement.
Isn't that only true if we use that reading as the camera setting?
Does the zone system teach anybody to set the camera by using a direct reading without applying a correction or offset to find the camera setting?
The calibration point in the zone system is 0.1 right?
That's not zone V is it?
Isn't the difference between the meter reading and the speed point on the film curve defined by a specific spread in the zone system? Put another way, doesn't an offset (calibration) need to be applied to get the meter to read properly at zone V?
Did sunny 16 change when the ASA speeds doubled?
If you put a Zone System sticker on your meter, you align Zone V with the main meter dial arrow.
Now there is nothing stopping anyone from choosing an Exposure Index that allows them to place shadows on Zone I with a direct reading. (Or picking any favorite Zone and making the Exposure Index to fit). But that's not your usual teaching.
Isn't that only true if we use that reading as the camera setting?
People interpret it in various ways according to how they want to use it. It should be remebered that Adams was using mostly sheet film and therefore exposing for shadows and then adjusting development for highlights on a sheet by sheet basis which makes sense. However, for roll film users it doesn't make any sense because you have many images on a roll all with different SBRs and you only get one development for all of them. In this case it makes a lot more sense to calibrate for a 10 Stop range because it covers 95% of all your SBRs on a roll, expose for the highlights and then adjust contrast in printing. If you are using sheet film then ignore anything I say and do it Adams way.Does the zone system teach anybody to set the camera by using a direct reading without applying a correction or offset to find the camera setting?
That number is just a minimum recommended value in my opinion. Whether you actually get 0.8 or 1.5 is of little significance providing there is sufficient distance between zone 0 and zone 1. That difference according to me should be a minimum of 0.07. That value is the minimum required to show that the toe is coming up from being flat and that is the clue to the EI you should be using for the contrast range you are trying to calibrate to.The calibration point in the zone system is 0.1 right?
No it isn't zone V.That's not zone V is it?
See above.Isn't the difference between the meter reading and the speed point on the film curve defined by a specific spread in the zone system? Put another way, doesn't an offset (calibration) need to be applied to get the meter to read properly at zone V?
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