Why does the Honeywell Tilt-a-mite flash have a capacitor?

[hsandler]

Thanks for this testing.

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

Thanks for this testing.

You're welcome, it's been fun and instructive, thank you for your useful input. By the way, you mentioned that you soldered a modern electrolytic to replace the old capacitor, it would be great if you could try your flash with a 3v battery like the one I use (CR123), instead of the 15 volt you're using. That's an experiment I can no longer make because I don't have a capacitor, but I am sure it would work the same, and save some money to a few people. 3 volt CR123 batteries start at $2.50 on Amazon when the only 15 volt replacement, the Exell 504A is $14 on B&H or Amazon.
Cheers

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

According to information that I founbd, the 15v battery was 34.9mm x 15.1mm x 15.9mm ...do you know of 12v that would fit in its place?

Hi. If your Tilt-A-Mite's capacitor still works and you just want a battery that's cheaper than the 15v, one solution is a 12v 23A battery:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...p=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=23+battery+-cell&LH_FS=1
Dimensions are 28 x 10 mm, but if you add the battery holder (outside dimensions 34 x 12 x 12 mm) then you're fine.
The holders cost $0.99 for 5 of them, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-23A-A...443348?hash=item3b36fa4b14:g:Y9YAAOSwWkxdTTms
and you don't even have to solder them to your flash, just add a thin piece of metal so contact is tight (use thumbtack heads after removing the pin, or anything else).
Hope this helps,
Cheers

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

Hi. If your Tilt-A-Mite's capacitor still works and you just want a battery that's cheaper than the 15v, one solution is a 12v 23A battery:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...p=15&_osacat=0&_odkw=23+battery+-cell&LH_FS=1
Dimensions are 28 x 10 mm, but if you add the battery holder (outside dimensions 34 x 12 x 12 mm) then you're fine.
The holders cost $0.99 for 5 of them, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-23A-A...443348?hash=item3b36fa4b14:g:Y9YAAOSwWkxdTTms
and you don't even have to solder them to your flash, just add a thin piece of metal so contact is tight (use thumbtack heads after removing the pin, or anything else).
Hope this helps,
Cheers
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Hi again everyone. Update on 12volt A23 battery instead of the original 15v battery.
I just got my 12 volt batteries and battery holders in from China and tested them on 3 different BC flash guns: Nikon BC-7, Tilt-a-Mite II, and Sunset BC 1500.
I have the pleasure to confirm that it works on all of them.
The holder is exactly the same size as the 15v 504 battery, so no need to solder it to the flash, I cut the 2 wires off and just added a bit of aluminium foil on both ends for good snug contact. The advantage is the price: about $3 for 5 x 12v batteries and $1 for 5 holders, free worldwide shipping, take a look:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=23a+battery+5pcs&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&Product%20Type=Battery&_sop=15&Type=23A%2FMN21&_osacat=50602&_odkw=23a+battery&_dcat=50602&LH_FS=1

and:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=5Pcs+23A/A23+Battery+Holder&_sacat=0&LH_FS=1&_sop=15

So for a total of $4 I can replace 5 x 15volt batteries, that's 80 cents for 1 Flash Gun, compared to the $14 (+shipping) here:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=exell 15v neda 220 battery&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=
or here:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...tleDesc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=exell++a220+battery

What a save! Cheers.

 

[carerre]

Well friends, the final test has spoken.
Here are the pictures.
Camera: Yashica Mat 124G
Flash: Tilt A Mite, no capacitor, 3 volt CR123 battery instead of capacitor
Film: Ilford Pan-F 50
Bulbs: Sylvania M3
Pic #1: 1/60s at f/11
Pic #2: 1/125s at f/8
Pic #3: 1/250s at f/5.6
Pic #4: 1/250s at f/8
Pic #5: 1/500s at f/5.6
Pic #6: 1/500s at f/8

Conclusion:
My little 3 volt combo syncs at all speeds (previous problems came from focal plane cameras), as already specified by the bulb manufacturer ("Flash with 3 volt or more", bottom of last pic attached, in yellow)
Recommandations:
Just follow Sylvania's instructions on the box of M3 bulbs (bottom of last pic attached, in yellow) which are:
1- with focal plane SLRs, 1/30s max
2- with leaf shutter cameras, M sync and any speed up to 1/500s

Thanks everyone for your input and guidance,
Cheers

View attachment 228348 View attachment 228349 View attachment 228350 View attachment 228351 View attachment 228352 View attachment 228353 View attachment 228354

Hi, just want to clarify your experiment. So, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery in the battery compartment and the capacitor space is empty? Thanks.

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

Hi, just want to clarify your experiment. So, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery in the battery compartment and the capacitor space is empty? Thanks.

Hi. That's right, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery, but in the CAPACITOR's compartment, and the battery space is left empty

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hi, just want to clarify your experiment. So, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery in the battery compartment and the capacitor space is empty? Thanks.

Hi. That's right, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery, but in the CAPACITOR's compartment, and the battery space is left empty

Only one basic problem with this logic. Honeywell and its electrical engineers would not waste parts and profit for unneeded parts. The problem is that you do not understand the design. So how about another question: Exactly where did you get your electrical engineering degree?

 

[AgX]

Sirius, one can design an incandescent flash with and without capacitator. Both forms were made.,

That you yourself had not understood the design you can read up in posts #20 and #21.

 

[reddesert]

Only one basic problem with this logic. Honeywell and its electrical engineers would not waste parts and profit for unneeded parts. The problem is that you do not understand the design. So how about another question: Exactly where did you get your electrical engineering degree?

Batteries have improved a lot over the last many decades. At the time these flashes were designed, the available small batteries could not deliver a high current capacity for a short time, which is what this flash presumably needs (by the nature of flashbulbs). So a capacitor was used to avoid needing 3 D cells or whatever. Posts #15 and #17 by DWThomas and ronnie_retro on the first page explained this well. A lithium battery like the CR123 avoids the engineering restrictions Honeywell was operating under at the time.

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

Batteries have improved a lot over the last many decades. At the time these flashes were designed, the available small batteries could not deliver a high current capacity for a short time, which is what this flash presumably needs (by the nature of flashbulbs). So a capacitor was used to avoid needing 3 D cells or whatever. Posts #15 and #17 by DWThomas and ronnie_retro on the first page explained this well. A lithium battery like the CR123 avoids the engineering restrictions Honeywell was operating under at the time.

Hi Sirius,
my solution to replace the capacitor with a CR123 or a 23A battery (see posts 78 & 79) is for people like me who use their flash on a regular basis and burn a lot of bulbs.
It has 2 advantages:
1-It's cheap.
2-It's convenient and elegant. No soldering or any other alteration needed, leaving your Tilt-A-Mite intact for future options.
Wish everyone a great 2020 with lots of flashes!
Cheers

 

[carerre]

Hi. That's right, you don't need a capacitor to fire the bulb. Just one CR123 battery, but in the CAPACITOR's compartment, and the battery space is left empty

Wow....that is great! Thank you!

 

[carerre]

Hi Sirius,
my solution to replace the capacitor with a CR123 or a 23A battery (see posts 78 & 79) is for people like me who use their flash on a regular basis and burn a lot of bulbs.
It has 2 advantages:
1-It's cheap.
2-It's convenient and elegant. No soldering or any other alteration needed, leaving your Tilt-A-Mite intact for future options.
Wish everyone a great 2020 with lots of flashes!
Cheers

I've been staring for at few of my stash-away honeywell flashes but don't know what to do with them. My instinct tells me to dig deeper in finding the answer. Am glad I found it. Finaally, I can give my stashed away bulbs a glorious death.

 

[Ruben Bensimon]

I've been staring for at few of my stash-away honeywell flashes but don't know what to do with them. My instinct tells me to dig deeper in finding the answer. Am glad I found it. Finaally, I can give my stashed away bulbs a glorious death.

and when you're out of bulbs, you can buy more and keep using your Tilt-a-Mite:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Xflashbulbs.TRS2&_nkw=flashbulbs&_sacat=4702&

 

[carerre]

and when you're out of bulbs, you can buy more and keep using your Tilt-a-Mite:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Xflashbulbs.TRS2&_nkw=flashbulbs&_sacat=4702&

The bulbs are getting more and more expensive now. I usually snoop around craigslist to get my stash. Thanks again.

 

[DWThomas]

What goes around comes around

The other day I dug out a non-digital multi-meter which I hadn't used in eons. Normally they contain a battery or two for making resistance measurements and I suddenly had a sinking feeling that I had probably left the batteries in it for two or three decades. As a time reference, Lafayette Radio, the company that sold these, went out of business in 1981 -- I've had it for a while!

Yes, there were batteries in it, an AA cell for the lower resistance ranges, AN-N-ND, a 15 volt battery like in the Tilt-A-Mite for the highest range! Remarkably, while the AA cell had leaked, the goop seemed to be relatively clean looking transparent crystals that cleaned up easily and didn't appear to have done much damage. More amazingly, the 15 v looked unscathed and carried a label "1972" that I apparently stuck on when it was last replaced. What really blows my mind is that it still showed an open circuit reading of 10 volts! I immediately recalled this thread.

(the "3/88 " fell off the ugly AA cell.)

 

[Helge]

The bulbs are getting more and more expensive now. I usually snoop around craigslist to get my stash. Thanks again.

Ebay was never the place to buy stuff like this. Soon it won't be the place to buy anything, with the rampant speculation and flimflam going on.
There is still a tonne out there and very few people using them.

 

[Helge]

Batteries have improved a lot over the last many decades. At the time these flashes were designed, the available small batteries could not deliver a high current capacity for a short time, which is what this flash presumably needs (by the nature of flashbulbs). So a capacitor was used to avoid needing 3 D cells or whatever. Posts #15 and #17 by DWThomas and ronnie_retro on the first page explained this well. A lithium battery like the CR123 avoids the engineering restrictions Honeywell was operating under at the time.

The problem with the 123 battery is that you are never sure.
Is the triggering current getting you the max light out of your bulb (timing and combustion)? When is the battery depleted and when is it getting unstable?

You are not only wasting bulbs, film and batteries (caps help get the last out of a battery, much worse you are also wasting your time taking badly exposed photos, perhaps not even realizing it.

With a very cheap capacitor in the right place, you can be quite sure you are getting enough wack, with no latency.
If you are unsure press the charge lamp in the flash or use a test lamp for a dud shot.

Might I suggest that if you forced or really want to go battery only, that you then use a more powerful cell that allows both current and volts. Something like the 12V MN21/23A.

 

[AgX]

The problem with the 123 battery is that you are never sure.
Is the triggering current getting you the max light out of your bulb (timing and combustion)?

The grade or speed of combustion is independant of the electrical current.

On the timing one indeed may argue, whether a too slow warming of the electric filament results in the combustion starting retarded.

 

[Helge]

The grade or speed of combustion is independant of the electrical current.

On the timing one indeed may argue, whether a too slow warming of the electric filament results in the combustion starting retarded.

I was thinking more along the lines of too much current.
Anyone who has tried an E27 bulb in a standard lamp will have been disappointed with the wimpy little ping it gives off, before blowing the fuse.
But sparking one or two filament strands, as opposed to more with too little current and/or voltage, surely also has some, though perhaps tiny effect on complete combustion time.
Bulbs is all about not missing the peak with the shutter.

 

[AgX]

You misunderstand the working of a flashbulb. The actual start of the combustion is not the heated filament, but the explosion of a fuse consisting of tiny amonts of explosive material being spread around.

Again: the combustion time is not dependant on the working of the filamant.
But on the working of the fuse material, but even much more on the sort and shape of the combustable metal and the gas filling.

 

[Helge]

You misunderstand the working of a flashbulb. The actual start of the combustion is not the heated filament, but the explosion of a fuse consisting of tiny amonts of explosive material being spread around.

Again: the combustion time is not dependant on the working of the filamant.
But on the working of the fuse material, but even much more on the sort and shape of the combustable metal and the gas filling.

Are you sure that’s how all bulbs work (pyrotechnics)? I have a mighty hard time seeing a tiny explosive device in any of the flash bulbs I own.
Most of them appears to just be two electrodes pushed into the woolly substrate.

 

[AgX]

Often the electrical filamants do not even touch the combustable metal.

All I wrote is based on engineering literature of a major manufacturer.

 

[Helge]

Often the electrical filamants do not even touch the combustable metal.

All I wrote is based on engineering literature of a major manufacturer.

I’d love to read that. Is it available online? Do you remember the title and the brand/manufacturer?

 

[AgX]

Not online. And rare. The manufacturer is Philips.

 

[BrianShaw]

Here’s an old source of non-engineering description. Page 39. Willard Morgan is a well-acknowledged expert in this area. Note, however, that this source is 1939 and pre-dates the “miniature” flash bulbs. Morgan writes of pyro paste in both foil- and wire-filled bulbs.

Like AgX, I’ve not noticed physical connection or pyro igniter in the “modern” miniature bulbs. But I also never interrogated the bulbs too much.

Morgan also writes of the need for ignition accuracy and precision when flash photography transitioned from open to synchronized flash.

https://www.worldcat.org/title/sync...ized-photography-with-flashbulbs/oclc/3297862

I have a first edition book and couldn’t easily find an online version. Maybe you can search more comprehensively than me if you are really interested.